If slaughterhouses had glass walls everyone would become a vegetarian

This is a good example of using worse practise to prove a point.

Fortunately in the UK it is possible to buy meat from suppliers who use best practice.

I have no plans on becoming a vegetarian, although I have vegetarian days for health reasons.

I do believe strongly that if a person is a meat eater, then they should be intersted meat that's producted locally in a best practice environment.

Far too often people are buying process food that comes form half way round the world outside of the UK's farming regulations.

However, in the same way as we should care where I meat comes from, we should also be concerned about the farming methods utilised in crop production,

It you eat processed food you have no control over the ingredients and therefore are probably on supporting, palm oil based products, GM, de-forestation and virtual water export.

Yes, we need higher standard in food production, but it's not just about meat, it's about everything we eat.

Hence, that's why I chose to live a holistic lifestyle.

Myarka

Myarka.

"holistic" is then up to interpretation.

caring is more my way of trying to understand things.

"holistic" is then up to interpretation.

Adjective
holistic ( most holistic)
Positive
holistic

more holistic

most holistic

[LIST=1]

related to

Relating to a study of the whole instead of a separation into parts.

source:

How do you define holistic?

Namaste,
Myarka.

I totally agree with you Myarka. I stopped eating meat for many years because I felt my body didn't want it.
But a few years ago my body craved meat again so I give it meat, but I make sure that the meat I buy is from good suppliers....ie: free range. Organic is sadly not proof that an animal has been well treated. I feel no shame nor guilt when I eat meat because I know it has lived well and been dispatched swiftly and humanely.

I therefore live like you, holistically - recognising what my whole body needs.

Peta, sadly, have been shown to exaggerate and even lie in pursuit of their aims. I think Compassion in World Farming are far better and have my support. After all compassion includes all of us and not just the vegetarians.

Kind regards,
Christina

Sadly, i don't think everyone would Fadette as its likely there are some people that would be able to watch it without batting an eyelid/not be bothered about the animals.

I've been vegetarian for a few months, what stopped me from eating meat is due to being a member of a few animal welfare organisations and my own personal thoughts that something had to die for my own enjoyment. However, while I buy meat substitutes, I do buy Ham and some meat based products for my children as its up to them whether they want to become vegetarian.:)

I batted an eyelid and got a little upset by the video, but all it really did was bolster my belief that I am right in eating meat that my husband has caught and killed humanely and quickly, and local well-looked after meat.
Oddly enough I saw much of the poultry footage elsewhere online this morning in a vid against KFC, and it made me wonder why, if these atrocities were happening all the time, the pro-vegan societies had to recycle the same footage all over the place.

Still doesn't make it right, but there are alternative situations that exist which fly under the radar because it's not sensationalist.
i.e. free range, local produce that has a beautiful existence whilst it's alive.

I am afraid I don't know much about the compassionate farming alternatives to comment. Prehaps I should do a bit of research though, because as a meat eater I did find that video truly shocking.

I won't click on the link because it will upset me greatly.
I have been a vegetarian for a very long time and I am happy be one.

My family are meat eaters.

It's about choice and I wouldn't thank anybody for saying I should not be a vegetarian, so therefore I would not dream of telling anyone they should not eat meat.

It's about choice and I wouldn't thank anybody for saying I should not be a vegetarian, so therefore I would not dream of telling anyone they should not eat meat.

I totally agree 🙂

Myarka.

I used to catch the bus outside an abbatoir and it hasn't put me off eating meat!

There are some people whose digestive systems are more suited to eating meat than veg and I'm one of them. I therefore object to people telling me I must not eat meat.

I haven't clicked on the link nor will I. I can imagine what it's like because I have a veggi niece and a vegan niece. They often email me stuff or send it in the post and TBH I wish they wouldn't.

We eat meat which we buy from our local family butcher. We enjoy it and we feel healthy. I try and organise our meals so that we have at least one meat free meal per week and a fish meal.

We're adults and we can make our own minds up.

😮 I Watched that video and wished i hadnt, i eat very little meat anyway and i always
buy from my local butcher, so i know what kind of a life they have had,
there is a small slauterhouse in the next village to me, ive seen pigs and cows escape from there.

Namaste

Hmmmm. I know that there is probably a lot of misinformation out there about non-compassionate farming, how animals are slaughtered etc, but I am afraid to say I have been guilty of not giving much thought to where my food comes from before and this thread has really made me think. So thanks to Fadette for posting.

There are some people whose digestive systems are more suited to eating meat than veg and I'm one of them. I therefore object to people telling me I must not eat meat.

Totally agree Chris, there are some people who just do not fare well if they cut meat from their diet.

It has been labelled "metabolic typing". I also feel quite unwell if I stop eating meat (have done in the past) and changed to vegetable proteins. I have also made sure I balanced the non meat amino acids etc to make sure I wasn't missing out on anything but still felt unwell after 4 months. Went back to eating meat and energy levels shot back up.

I am all for good farming practices and have done the usual Peta, WEN and their ilk research in my younger days and found them to be extreme and not altogether presenting a complete picture in their protrayal of the animal food industry. All very one-sided in my opinion but that is what you would expect.

I like to look at all the avenues and make up my own mind.

Patchouli

that something had to die for my own enjoyment

I wouldn't say that eating meat is for ones personal enjoyment. Some blood types need meat to remain healthy.

Eat right for your blood type pinpoints the blood types that require meat for a healthy diet and those whose bodies would do better without meat.

I once worked with someone who had been vegetarian for many years, one day I noticed he was eating beef. I asked him about this and he just said that he felt his body needed it once more, he hadn't been feeling well for a long time, and introducing meat back into his diet radically improved his health.

There are some people whose digestive systems are more suited to eating meat than veg and I'm one of them. I therefore object to people telling me I must not eat meat.

I'm glad you wrote this Chris as I totally agree with you as well. Shock tactics would not turn me towards vegetarianism either - I just find them annoying.

I am a meat eater....I tried to give it up once. Within a few days I too was craving red meat...just gotta have it!!

Many years ago I just gave up eating lamb and beef, for absolutely no logical reason, I just 'went off' them.

It wasn't until I read the blood type book that I read that Blood A types don't do well on beef or lamb.

Subconciously I must have known that my body didn't need those meats. I still don't eat them to this day, but stick to chicken which is a neutral meat for blood types A.

My digestive system is the same as a rabbit. 😀
Fruit, veg and salads - I can't get enough.

Veggie Facts

Just a few facts................................
Vegetarian Vitality
A report on the health benefits of the vegetarian diet and the nutritional requirements of vegetarians.
A vegetarian diet confers a wide range of health benefits. Research has proven that vegetarians suffer less from many of the dieases linked to a modern Western diet: obesity, coronary heart disease, hypertension, type II diabetes, diet-related cancers, diverticular disease, constipation and gall stones (British Medical Association,1986; Dwyer, 1988).
MORTALITY
Epidemiological studies provide clear evidence that vegetarians have a reduced general and cause-specific mortality (McMichael, 1992).
In an 11-year study of 1,900 vegetarians in Germany, Chang-Claude (1992) found mortality from all causes was reduced by one-half compared with the general population. This was mainly attributable to reduced cardiovascular disease in both men and women. A longer duration of vegetarianism was associated with a lower risk, pointing to a real protective effect of the lifestyle (Chang-Claude, 1993).
A 12-year follow-up study of 6,115 British vegetarians and 5,015 meat-eaters found all cause premature mortality to be 20 per cent lower among the vegetarians after adjusting for the confounding effects of smoking, body mass index and socioeconomic status (Thorogood, 1994). Cancer mortality was 39 per cent lower and ischaemic heart disease 28 per cent lower among the vegetarians.
A 21-year study of Californian Seventh-Day Adventists also revealed a significant association between meat consumption and all causes of mortality (Kahn, 1984).

While other factors influencing health such as socioeconomic differences, smoking and physical activity may play a confounding role in these studies, there is sufficient evidence to suggest that a reduced risk of mortality is directly linked to a vegetarian diet.

CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE

Cardiovascular disease is the main cause of premature mortality in Britain, with most deaths being caused by coronary heart disease.
Vegetarians have a significantly lower incidence of coronary heart disease than meat-eaters. Burr and Butland (1988) found mortality from heart disease was 29 per cent lower in a study of more than 6,000 British vegetarians compared with a control group of health-conscious meat-eaters. A study of more than 25,000 Seventh-Day Adventists noted a definite dose-related link between meat consumption and heart disease (Snowdon, 1984). Among men aged 45 to 64, those who ate meat daily were three times more likely to die from heart disease than those who did not eat meat.
Deaths from ischaemic heart disease among vegetarian and non-vegetarians
(Burr and Butland, 1988)

*The SMR is the observed number of deaths as a percentage of the corresponding expected number of deaths (from published mortality rates for England and Wales) The degenerative processes leading to heart disease can begin at an early age. Atherosclerosis, the forming of fibrous plaques on arterial walls and one of the first stages in the development of cardiovascular disease, has been observed in young children and adolescents. The Coronary Artery Risk Development in Young Adults (CARDIA) study examined the relationship between diet and health in more than 5,000 young adults aged 18 to 30 (Slattery 1991). Vegetarians were found to have a greatly improved cardiovascular fitness and a lower risk of heart disease.
One way that a vegetarian diet is thought to protect against heart disease is the lower levels seen in vegetarians. Raised cholesterol is widely recognised as a primary risk factor for heart disease and studies have consistently demonstrated serum cholesterol levels in vegetarians as being around 10 per cent lower than in non-vegetarians (Burr, 1981; Knuiman and West, 1982; Thorogood, 1990). This figure may result in a 20 to 50 per cent reduction in the incidence of heart disease (Law, 1994). The lower serum cholesterol levels in vegetarians is largely due to lowered low-density-lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol. This is the cholesterol fraction associated with heart disease.
Healthy eating advice aimed at reducing the risk of heart disease often encourages the use of lean meat cuts. However, in a comparison between a vegetarian diet and a lean meat diet (Kestin, 1989), the vegetarian diet was shown to lower cholesterol more effectively and so lessen the risk of cardiovascular disease.

The California Lifestyle Heart Trial indicated that a low-fat vegetarian diet together with other lifestyle changes such as increased exercise and stress management can actually reverse the progress of heart disease by reducing cholesterol plaques in arteries (Ornish, 1990). Barnard (1992) has shown a low-fat vegetarian diet can achieve high levels of compliance and acceptability among patients with heart disease.

OBESITY

Obesity is a major health problem in the UK and its incidence is increasing in both adults and children. Around 12 per cent of women and 8 per cent of men are clinically obese (Gregory, 1990) and many more are overweight. Obesity predisposes sufferers to a range of conditions including cardiovascular disease, type II diabetes, and hormone-dependent cancers such as breast cancer. Vegetarians are typically leaner than meat-eaters and obesity is less common in vegetarian populations. Body mass index (BMI) for vegetarians is lower than in meat-eaters and closer to desirable levels (Thorogood, 1989). Levin (1986a) found the prevalence of obesity to be 5.4 per cent in a vegetarian group compared with 19.5 per cent in non-vegetarians. This may be due to vegetarians' lower energy intake overall, with a lower proportion of energy being supplied by fat.
The established measure for obesity is the Body Mass Index (BMI). This is obtained by dividing a persons weight (kg) by the square of their height (m). Normal weight is defined as a BMI of 20-25. A BMI of 25 to 30 is overweight, over 30 is obese. Obesity is caused by an individual taking in more energy from food than they are using up in physical activity. Dieting is generally ineffective and repeated weight loss and gain can play a part in osteoporosis and heart disease. A healthy diet based on starchy foods such as bread, potatoes, rice and pasta together with fruits and vegetables and combined with increased physical activity is far more effective in bringing about successful weight loss.
HYPERTENSION
Hypertension, or high blood pressure, can contribute to heart disease, strokes and kidney failure. Both cross sectional populaton studies (Armstrong, 1977; Rouse, 1983) and controlled trials in hypertensive subjects (Margetts, 1986) provide evidence that vegetarians have lower blood pressure than non-vegetarians.
The reason for this is unclear. Studies suggest that the effect is not due to changes in any specific nutrient intake but the overall effect of combined nutrient change (Beilin, 1990).
DIABETES
Around one million people in the UK suffer from diabetes. Of these, about 75 per cent have type II diabetes (non-insulin dependent).
Snowdon (1985) found vegetarians had a substantially lower risk of type II diabetes than non-vegetarians. The link between meat consumption and incidence of diabetes remained after contributory factors such as weight, physical activity and other dietary factors were accounted for.
Dietary recommendations for diabetics encourage a high intake of complex carbohydrates and fibre and low consumption of total and [url]saturated fat[/url] (British Diabetic Association, 1982). Vegetarian diets tend to match these recommendations more closely.
The relative leanness of vegetarians also protects against diabetes, obesity being a major risk factor.
GALL STONES
Gall stones are composed af cholesterol, bile pigments and calcium salts. They form in the gall bladder and can cause severe pain.
A study of more than 750 women found that non-vegetarians were almost twice as likely to develop gall stones as vegetarians (Pixley, 1985).
DIVERTICULAR DISEASE AND BOWEL FUNCTION
Diverticular disease is widespread in the UK. Symptoms include abdominal pain and a disturbed bowel habit, usually constipation but sometimes diarrhoea. Gear (1979) found it to be significantly less frequent among vegetarians, probably due to the higher fibre content of vegetarian diets.

The high fibre content of vegetarian diets has also been linked with decreased incidence of constipation, appendicitis, irritable bowel syndrome, haemorrhoids and varicose veins (Dickerson, 1985).

CANCER

Cancer is second only to coronary heart disease as a cause of death in Britain. Accounting for around 25 per cent of all premature deaths with lung, breast and colo-rectal cancers being the most common.
It is estimated that at least one third all cancers are directly related to diet. Research has indicated that vegetarian diets may offer protection against diet-related cancer. PLANT FOODS AND CANCER
Plant foods contain a number of substances which are believed to protect against cancer. Indoles, lignans, isoflavones, protease inhibitors and others have all been shown to be potent anti-carcinogens and may play an important role in the lower cancer incidence among vegetarians. In contrast, cooked meat and fish contains carcinogens known as heterocyclic amines (HA's). These are present at high levels in the urine of people consuming cooked meats and have been shown to be metabolically active in humans. Evidence suggests meat-derived HA's may play a role in breast, colon and pancreatic cancer (Snyderwine 1994).

I wouldn't say that eating meat is for ones personal enjoyment. Some blood types need meat to remain healthy.

Hi Rosi1,

In regard to my quote, thats my own personal view as I did enjoy eating meat before I went veggie :).

pigs escaping from slaughterhouses, pigs that have been shown to be more intelligent than dogs, pigs that have the same face as a human embryo. And we just accept this. just like all atocities we allowed to happen just a few decades ago in Europe. it just shows how most of us cant take pain and d rather go along the status quo.

Shock tactics are here because there is a problem. but it s easier to ignore it.

In some countries people are nearly vegetarian or completely vegetarian. they just know how to cook and feed themselves. If you dont include all the food that a healthy diet should include daily (pulses, fruits, many veg, cereals) then you will find you need the stimulants of meat. Some yogi can smell a meat-eating man fom the way they smell "so bad", but surely that must be because...let me find some cynical easy explanations. Ah yea, they 're hallucinating weak superstitious folks anyway. Except I personally know an indian ayurvedic doctor who also can smell a meat eating person from their body odour, because according to him meat is the slowest food to be digested, it stays over 2 days in the intestines. A friend of mine is having "regular" colonics (about one every 2-3 months) and she confirmed this. meat remains come out from a meal eaten days ago.

now Im not trying to convert anyone by force or persuasion. the reality of farming has to be shown. and organic farming can be a warm little delusion to reasure the customer, lets not forget all the new labels and organizations are here for one thing: money.

If many of you here are so sure about the welfare and happy free lives of the animals they eat (and by that I include lambs and what we call "veals", which is enough to show how far we can go for in the name of pleasure, social customs and beliefs about diet) I assume you have personally been to these farms and seen the whole cycles from start to finish, know at what age the hen or cow is sent to the slaughterhouse, and been to the slaughterhouse itself and came back feeling ok with it wanting to eat beef for lunch?
If not, then I can only assume you are trusting labels and would also trust the hospital staff if you had to send your son or daughter to receive treatment, a child who could NOT speak, and the said hospital wouldnt allow you or anyone to visit? woud you also trust the organizations' little stickers on the mail you d receive through the post assuring you that your child is safely cared for?

Or is it just a matter of....living sensitive beings not being granted the same importance?

but tell me again, what started avian flu?
what started foot and mouth?
what started mad cow disease?
O yes I remember there were some dirty wild birds infecting all the healthy stocks somewhere. Surely, nothing to do with the fact that these 3 diseases started in countries having mass meat producing industries for millions people crammed inside little countries (in the case of England)...?

Vegetarian Issues

As a veggie for 25 years (and a vegan for 5 of those) I would say that to try and encourage vegetarianism by shock tactics is not the way to go.

When we had the foot-and-mouth outbreak and there were TV reports of pyres of cattle burning, a great number of people turned veggie and the Vegetarian Soc was deluged with requests for information. Many peole turned veggie overnight.
Unfortunately many were not able to sustain this new diet as they changed for the wrong reason - a knee-jerk reaction to something they found abhorrant - and not because of a properly thought out decision.
Being a veggie as we all know if a lifestyle choice and not just a change of diet.

I have tried to post some facts about the veggie diet and health but they have not been approved yet, maybe because there was too much information.

I think as veggies we need to stress the positive factors about a veggie diet and then let others decide for themselves. People come to accept things in their own time - and sometimes not at all !

And I always thought that those diseases were synthesised in laboratories and then released quite intentionally to sway economic markets and bolster political wrongdoings....
How naiive of me to assume this, rather than swallow the guff that the media provides...

Some tried to stress the positive factors of the nazi proceedings of "clearing" so that the German and Austrian population were not shocked into making the wrong decision that they wouldnt have been able, bless them, to sustain.

Sometimes political correctness when trying to protect people from horrible facts so that one is not accused of pessimism or trying to cause trauma for dubious reasons is a little bit tiring.

As the Daila Laima said, if you dont do anything to face and solve the problem then you 're part of that problem.
Seeing that many eat meat, this saying couldnt be more true. Eating misery.

Myarka, why did you copy paste a definition of "Holistic"? I didnt know many forum users were that uncultured, we learn every day I suppose.
As for explaining that holistic = care, I dont see your reasoning, I really cant. So far you've explained that you susbscribed to a Holistic (as in no part is independent of the Whole) system of beliefs that works for you, totally seperated from the suffering caused to animals (cows' babies are sent to be killed; ageing cows (as in reaching adulthood) sent being killed, all male chicks...yes repeating myself = sent to be killed. enough said?) and not to start even on the fact that farming (breeding cows for their meat) is the FIRST factor of world pollution affecting in turn climate change.
Now since this has been proved wordly scientifically one could argue in an attempt to cling to the hologram of reality one has created for oneself to avoid challenging and ultimately changing one's one of life, that this theory being recent is trendy rubbish.

Except that back in 2000 when i was doing work for Friends Of The Earth I remember sitting at many meetings about the harmful effects of intensive farming - meat industry (intensive: you'd be surprised to hear what is considered intensive, not just the American livestock farms as big as some European countries).

But I reckon you still think it is possible to live unpreoccupied by deteriorating life conditions in many countries, millions animals dying in pain and terror, many of them hours after they were born, and still be "holistic". Funny how vocabulary has always served the higher purpose of reshaping reality.

I suspect contradicting a Moderator is provocation that often ends in posts not appearing or even being banned, if so, Im happy.

And I always thought that those diseases were synthesised in laboratories and then released quite intentionally to sway economic markets and bolster political wrongdoings....
How naiive of me to assume this, rather than swallow the guff that the media provides...

indeed. much less we can do if it is this way. easier. have a warm cup of tea.

Veggie Issues

Some tried to stress the positive factors of the nazi proceedings of "clearing" so that the German and Austrian population were not shocked into making the wrong decision that they wouldnt have been able, bless them, to sustain.

Sorry, Faddette, but I don't think your analogy is appropriate.

Sometimes political correctness when trying to protect people from horrible facts so that one is not accused of pessimism or trying to cause trauma for dubious reasons is a little bit tiring.

And I'm sorry you think my approach is "tiring".

I've always found that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar and pushing a positive message is more effective than a negative one.

if you dont do anything to face and solve the problem then you 're part of that problem.

I would agree with that. We're on the same side here, aren't we ? :confused:

In my experience, most people don't like to be told what they should do, especially when it comes to their diet. When the governemnet put a ban on selling beef-on-the-bone years ago during the BSE/CJD scare a carnivore person I knew said "No government's going to tell me what to eat! " and promptly went to the butcher's to stock up with about 6 oxtails.

I don't think hard-sell works, so maybe we should agree to differ? 😀

I wasnt agressively personal. and yes we can agree to disagree.

I only think the matter is so important and so urgent it is becoming tedious to try and have a cuddly approach so that people who contribute to environmental devastation and animal suffering are not too shocked into rethinking what they eat.

I am not afraid to speak my mind to "enlightened" HP members.

Nothing in this world that we have called "a true impovement" or freedom (end of slavery, women's rights, children's rights etc) was achieved without the perseverance of some devoted people seen as "fanatics" using "shock tactics". Think suffragettes, think Anti-War recent demos, think anti-Thatcher and its brutal government...One can remember maybe that the trading and beating of Black people was justified in Bristol societies as in other parts of England and the world with "they dont have a soul", ie they are inferior, ie it doesnt matter, ie lets not get upset about this and Jane, boil the kettle and bring the biscuits!

And I do think the analogy is appropriate. We have been taught to think that humans are superior and we can do what we fancy with animals, therefore deaths of millions of humans is an abdsolute horror but death and torture of billions of animals is acceptable. It s all to do with Culture. and I dont buy into that Culture for this matter, I may be conditioned to the core for other matters, but personally it staggers me to try and understand how can one find it ok to (indirectly) inflict pain and death and justify it.

Recently a member of my family, when I was explaining the proceedings of dairy farming (killing of the calf; shock for the mother even a long time after the seperation) simply claimed "but everything is like that! you wont be able to eat or do anything if you start to care about everything like this!" It just showed me that 1) it IS a very sensitive spot and people dont like you to push the button to strip the reality to mere truth 2) first reaction is to be fatalistic or negative, whatever is more appropriate. We CANT do anything about it, it has been like this for eons, who can change it? noone, etc etc. and we havent got the time and energy to start feeling depressed for animals (but will shed a tear when precious cat got injured. Logic?).

To sum it up, each their own way of justifying horrors, at the end of the day, they re the one digesting it.

The debate between meat eaters and vegetarians will go on forever, and there are many threads on HP to show that.

I think the issue of this thread is about how vegetarians/vegans market their views, and is it right to use shock tactics?

I don't think shock tactics are that bad, except they usually do the opposite to what they set out to achieve. Many of these videos display extreme cases and not the norm, and therefore they are trying to change people's opinions through half truths.

I think everyone would agree the world is in a food crisis. Some would argue simplistically that it's due too the world's population being too high. Others would argue it's due to global capitalism, or many other things.

Personally I don't have any issues with anyone who is vegetarian or vegan, but I do have an issue when they tell me what my motivations and thoughts are.

I care passionately about the world's food production and have written about it on many of HPs threads. However, I have found some from the vegetarian/vegan camps do not acknowledge my arguments.

To me, food and water security as a big an issue today as global warming. Many people in the world are starving because they have little or no food. This is caused primarily by globalisation of markets that protect developed countries at the cost of the poor.

It is one of the most moving experiences to share a meal with someone who share what they have, when their food is the most valuable thing they own. It doesn't mater is they're meat eaters, vegetarians or vegans because they know and understand the true value of food.

Myarka.