What makes anything real .. .

Just catching up (and picking out a couple of points to respond to)...

Hi Giles .
Do you think that It was pure luck or by chance that consciousness allows what we are to be self conscious .

Luck is a two sided coin.
Chance is a two sided coin.
Allowing supports Disallowing.

I think consciousness, self consciousness etc. have always been. It's not a case of chance, luck or allowing anything, because that is surely just the mind telling us that there has to be a reason for one thing, created by an "other".

Hi Paul .
Of course beyond mind there Is no-one / no-thing to realize . This Is where I feel true - being exists . No-one (to be) being anything “just being” .

True BEing exists, simple as. It doesn't require placing anywhere, because anywhere is somewhere other than elsewhere. It isn't beyond or afore, or beyond or before, is is just here and now (here being everywhere).

😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Daz

Consciousness In my eyes Is an aspect of the mind just as daz Is, the trees are, the sun Is, the sky Is, and the easter bunny Is .

That is a little back to front to my current understanding of consciousness, what that statement says to me, is that if you are not aware of something within your thinking mind, then it does not exist.

If I put our different aspects of consciousness together, then I normally refer to it as our matrix of consciousness of which our thinking mind/consciousness is only a very small part of the whole.

Luck is a two sided coin.
Chance is a two sided coin.
Allowing supports Disallowing.

I think consciousness, self consciousness etc. have always been. It's not a case of chance, luck or allowing anything, because that is surely just the mind telling us that there has to be a reason for one thing, created by an "other".

Hi Giles .

Ok .

From another angle . 🙂

Lets work on a different level here and say for example that many parts / areas of our planet Is an environment for herbs to grow . Now as an Individual I have become Interested In the healing properties of all things that nature provides for man . Is It a coincidence that all of what nature provides for man can keep him healthy and sustain him for the duration of a lifetimes worth of experience to be had .

All Is either well and truly designed In order for life to continue or all Is by luck or by chance . I would disagree that consciousness has always been and yet what we are has always been . The planet earth has not always been (I would say) and neither has all of our herbs . So they came Into being and they came Into a physical reality for a purpose .

Duality exists In order for the Individual to notice the oneness . If there wasn’t duality In expression then oneness could not be realized . We wouldn’t know what a short person was If there were no tall people .

True BEing exists, simple as. It doesn't require placing anywhere, because anywhere is somewhere other than elsewhere. It isn't beyond or afore, or beyond or before, is is just here and now (here being everywhere).

Ha haha . To mention TRUE being exists Giles you allow the presence of an untruthful being to exist . (lol) See how difficult It Is to mention anything these days he heehe . 🙂

We probably have a different take of what being Is Giles . I can only go by what I was In experience of . As I am typing this response to you I am thinking I am acting on what I am thinking by a way of typing so therefore I am doing also .

A state of being that I experienced was where no-one was present . No universe was present . No-thing to do, no-one to think about doing or being (lol) . I do understand that many experience physicality where they have removed their own will so to speak so It feels as If they are functioning In life but It Is not them that Is doing the doings he hehe .

It then becomes Gods-will and not Individual will . This Is another state of being that I understand . In that Instance there Is no particular place where being can be .

I do emphasize though Giles on beyond mind because how else do you explain there not being an awareness of anything (not even) the self .

There Is no-one observing for there Is no-thing to observe . Where does a place-less place like that reside Giles .

x dazzle x

Hi Daz

That is a little back to front to my current understanding of consciousness, what that statement says to me, is that if you are not aware of something within your thinking mind, then it does not exist.

Hi Paul .

Perhaps you Interpreted It like that paul but It’s not what I had meant . There could be conscious life at the bottom of our oceans and I might not be aware that they exist but that doesn’t exclude what I am not aware of from existing . (hey) . What I mean In reference to my statement that you quoted on Is that what we perceive as to be the sky or a tree or Giles or the easter bunny are all Individual aspects / forms within mind . They are all you and you are all they . Every cell contains consciousness . Therefore everything Is consciousness within mind . the tree Is just another aspect / form of consciousness .

Like a piece of clay can be formed In to a vase and a cup and a plate and whatever . They are all forms made form the same clay . They are all aspects of the same clay . What we are can be formed within mind as conscious aspects of the mind .

If I put our different aspects of consciousness together, then I normally refer to it as our matrix of consciousness of which our thinking mind/consciousness is only a very small part of the whole.

I understand why you would make that evaluation . 🙂

x daz x

Hi Daz

Words often get in the way and do not convey our understanding in the the way that we would like them to. 🙂

I think that what I am trying to convey, is that in order to me to become aware of the other aspects of my consciousness and learn to function within them to help self and others, I had to reach beyond the limitations of the thinking mind and embrace the fullness of self in an open and non-judgemental way, it turned out that being able to embrace the fullness of self, also connected me with something much vaster than self, the oneness which is composed of BEings of pure consciousness.

Our thinking mind is a hive of activity, it is always striving to understand and analyse things, it likes to compartmentalise things and label them, it forms attachments to things and creates judgements, sets boundary's etc, it is very seldom still.

But when we learn to still our mind and then move through the stillness to reach beyond the barriers that it erects to protect its creation of individuality and attachment to self, then we find something else, we find a form of consciousness which does not need to strive to understand and analyse things, we find a consciousness that works within the harmony of BEing, utilising wholeness and acceptance in a calm complete knowing way, rather than through the bustle of wanting to know and be.

Hi Daz

Words often get in the way and do not convey our understanding in the the way that we would like them to. 🙂

Hi Paul . Absolutely Agree .

I think that what I am trying to convey, is that in order to me to become aware of the other aspects of my consciousness and learn to function within them to help self and others, I had to reach beyond the limitations of the thinking mind and embrace the fullness of self in an open and non-judgemental way, it turned out that being able to embrace the fullness of self, also connected me with something much vaster than self, the oneness which is composed of BEings of pure consciousness.

I understand that and I liked what you have said and In the way that you have said It . 🙂 My only thoughts on your comment made where you have said “ it turned out that being able to embrace the fullness of self, also connected me with something much vaster than self, the oneness which is composed of BEings of pure consciousness.”

I would say (because my understandings of self differ from yours) Is that what we are “Is” the self within mind so when what we are realizes what we are within / of the mind It will contain the everything and nothing that Is of the Oneness . So there Is nothing more to realize other than the self unless one transcends the mind .

Our thinking mind is a hive of activity, it is always striving to understand and analyse things, it likes to compartmentalise things and label them, it forms attachments to things and creates judgements, sets boundary's etc, it is very seldom still.

I agree .

But when we learn to still our mind and then move through the stillness to reach beyond the barriers that it erects to protect its creation of individuality and attachment to self, then we find something else, we find a form of consciousness which does not need to strive to understand and analyse things, we find a consciousness that works within the harmony of BEing, utilising wholeness and acceptance in a calm complete knowing way, rather than through the bustle of wanting to know and be.

I agree with your thoughts . . I am unsure If we can still the mind though for there Is always movement / vibration where conscious life Is concerned (to some degree) .

How do you still the mind paul - how can you prevent a thought from arising for Instance .

What aspect of the mind do you use to still the mind .

x dazzle x

Hi Daz

I would say (because my understandings of self differ from yours) Is that what we are “Is” the self within mind so when what we are realizes what we are within / of the mind It will contain the everything and nothing that Is of the Oneness . So there Is nothing more to realize other than the self unless one transcends the mind .

You have it, the mind is our physical I AM. 🙂

I agree with your thoughts . . I am unsure If we can still the mind though for there Is always movement / vibration where conscious life Is concerned (to some degree) .

That is because you do not believe that it is possible, once you have achieved this, your thought patterns and beliefs will change to embrace something different. 🙂

How do you still the mind paul - how can you prevent a thought from arising for Instance .

It was difficult to start with because the mind does not wish to relinquish its domination within our physical existence, I can now do it at will.

What aspect of the mind do you use to still the mind .

I don't use my mind to still my mind, that would be a difficult thing to do, I appear to use my whole being to tell it to be quiet and it shuts up, if I am in a position to perform my meditation then I can let go of everything and just allow myself to be, I suppose that some form of process is utilised, but I usually do this sort of thing intuitively and go with the flow.

Hi Daz

That is because you do not believe that it is possible, once you have achieved this, your thought patterns and beliefs will change to embrace something different. 🙂

I am all for a mind-set that Is absent from thought Paul . Some may know this mind-set to be the void or the abyss . I just don't see how anything In mind can be stilled . Life Is consciousness In motion .

It was difficult to start with because the mind does not wish to relinquish its domination within our physical existence, I can now do it at will.

Absolutely . I have been meditating daily for 20 years now for 2-3 years I was fighting myself . I was doubting myself . I was doing everything In mind that kept me in mind hehehe .

I don't use my mind to still my mind, that would be a difficult thing to do, I appear to use my whole being to tell it to be quiet and it shuts up, if I am in a position to perform my meditation then I can let go of everything and just allow myself to be, I suppose that some form of process is utilised, but I usually do this sort of thing intuitively and go with the flow.

This whole being Paul - Is your "whole being" all that Is of the Mind . Or are you referring to something that Is separate from the mind .

x daz x

Hi Daz

The whole being includes the aspect that we call the mind, the mind might well think that it is the whole being, but it is not, it is not capable of doing the things that the whole being is capable of doing, it is not capable of processing all of the information that is required to perform an everyday task like walking.

For every conscious thought that we have in our thinking mind, there are thousands of underlying processes of consciousness going on unnoticed in the background within our other aspects of consciousness which go towards making up our whole being.

Hi Daz

The whole being includes the aspect that we call the mind, the mind might well think that it is the whole being, but it is not, it is not capable of doing the things that the whole being is capable of doing, it is not capable of processing all of the information that is required to perform an everyday task like walking.

For every conscious thought that we have in our thinking mind, there are thousands of underlying processes of consciousness going on unnoticed in the background within our other aspects of consciousness which go towards making up our whole being.

Hi Paul .

Ah O.k Paul . So let me recap ...

Sooooo .. When you still the mind (and In reference to your quote) “I appear to use my whole being to tell it to be quiet” you cannot exclude that the mind Is the platform used to quieten the thoughts that are of the mind also . It’s all of the mind In other words .

The thoughts that exist within / of the mind are quietened In your words by the whole being that (Is of the mind that are my words) . It’s like trying to separate the self that Is “lets say” a representation of a fish In the pond and then trying to separate It from the water that surrounds It . The water being the mind . Is the fish only aware of the Immediate water that Is only a stones throw away from It’s senses or does the fish realize that the whole of the entire pond Is what they are within mind Including the tadpoles, the lily pads, etc . . .

My question Is . .. Would the sun / suns rays (for example) that Is not directly of the pond be a representation to what Is or could possibly beyond mind although not being separate from It .

the mind might well think that it is the whole being .

This raised an eyebrow Paul because It does raise an Interesting point .

Does the mind think? I only see the mind as an environment that entertains / allows thoughts to arise .

x dazzle x

Hi Daz

The water thing is the same with us, if we have bad air then we are aware that we are breathing it, otherwise we breath without thought unless we decide to consciously control it. 🙂

Does the mind think? I only see the mind as an environment that entertains / allows thoughts to arise .

Where do you think your everyday thoughts are coming from when you type a reply to someone or think about something, if not from the thinking mind?

Hi Daz
Where do you think your everyday thoughts are coming from when you type a reply to someone or think about something, if not from the thinking mind?

Hi Paul .

Obviously Paul one needs to find common ground as always (lol) as to what the mind Is firstly and as to what It Is that we are In relation to the mind .

The mind to my understanding Is the environment that allows and supports what we are to experience what we are In many ways that will and can contain such things as realizations, knowings, feelings, to manifest . It allows what we are to choose various forms of consciousness In order to do just that . I would say also that we are restricted to what form we can choose In relation to our own Individual evolvement within the process of life as to like having an experience of mineral, animal, human existences .

Of course what we are must be present within / of the mind also In order for the knowings / realizations of just that to occur . The self Is what we are within mind . There Is only one self and that same self Is I . Is You . Is all .

So when you say “Where do you think your everyday thoughts are coming from when you type a reply to someone or think about something, if not from the thinking mind?”

My response would be In reference to your question would be or would Integrate my understandings that were ascertained within and beyond mind In reference to what It Is that I am . What I mean Is that while I am typing to you what I would like to convey would entail having an expression of what that Is Intellectually In reference to what I know . My Individual aspect of what I am Is utilizing the minds ability to convey what that Is within a platform/aspect of mind communication .

There has to be what we are’s Input In to / of mind . The thing Is paul If someone Is lost un to themselves and what they think / feel / about what It Is that they are etc, - They will therefore be a reflected expression of that In respect to what thoughts come to their Individual mind that will only allow and contain a flavour of that expression . Like the ego for example - If what an Individual feels / thinks and presumes to know that what they are Is something special or that they are above any other forms of life then what thoughts that will arise will be ego based .

That Individual will function / act / express / feel etc, In relation to their Integrated mind-set .

What they are will still observe the world around them but what they are will be observing life and the self through limited awareness of what Is . Unless that Individual Is unconditioned .

What they therefore will observe will allow thoughts to arise that will contain an understanding to whatever that Is that they are observing with their Individual mind-set . We all can observe the sun that Is of our sky but depending on what mind-set each Individual functions within will depend on what thoughts each of us will have In relation to what the sun Is or what It Is that the sun contains / represents In It’s totality .

We use the ability of the mind to allow thoughts to arise but the mind does not think Independently In respect to what we are or what the sun or the easter bunny Is .

A real basic breakdown In what I mean Is that the mind Is a computer . The computers software that Is not separate from the computer allows experience to be had . The more software Is added / upgraded the more awareness will follow as to what It Is that we are In respect to our current environment etc .

The added software allows what we are to enter the next level and our understandings / knowings / perceptions of what that Is and what that contains will change In tandem with the new level .

The energy that created / designed the computer and the software Is the same energy that observes our game of life .

x daz x

Hi Daz

Of course what we are must be present within / of the mind also In order for the knowings / realizations of just that to occur . The self Is what we are within mind . There Is only one self and that same self Is I . Is You . Is all .

I perceive the oneness that way and although I understand that in our natural state of pure consciousness we are all one, in this physical reality we are not.

You and I can not occupy the same space at the same time as that is physically impossible, likewise the forms of consciousness that we create to exist within this reality are separate and distinct from each other.

When we come here we are born as a human being, we have to remain as a human being until we die, irrespective of the mind getting a glimpse of what lies beyond the limitations of our matrix of consciousness, we cannot move forward or backward in time, we cannot fly unaided, we cannot think of being somewhere and then transport ourselves there with a thought, we are human beings with a human beings mind together with other aspects of consciousness that makes up a human being.

If I sent you a locked case that was impermeable to x-rays and scans with something locked within it, if your mind was what you are describing, then you would know without asking or breaking open the case, what I had placed within the case and what it was, even if you had never encountered it before!

There has to be what we are’s Input In to / of mind . The thing Is paul If someone Is lost un to themselves and what they think / feel / about what It Is that they are etc, - They will therefore be a reflected expression of that In respect to what thoughts come to their Individual mind that will only allow and contain a flavour of that expression . Like the ego for example - If what an Individual feels / thinks and presumes to know that what they are Is something special or that they are above any other forms of life then what thoughts that will arise will be ego based .

The mind is responsible for instigating everything you are describing here, everything starts and finishes with a thought.

That Individual will function / act / express / feel etc, In relation to their Integrated mind-set .

No that is a misconception, the mind might well set off thought patterns and beliefs within it creations, but there are other aspects of consciousness which come into play such as our core way of being and our memory consciousness, if we are dealing with an inner conflict between our different aspects of consciousness, then the thinking mind often does not know what to do, or why we feel the way we are feeling.

We use the ability of the mind to allow thoughts to arise but the mind does not think Independently In respect to what we are or what the sun or the easter bunny Is .

Are you sure that it is not the mind that has to identify and classify the sun as the sun etc, when we encounter something new, which aspect of consciousness tries to understand it and give it a name?

The energy that created / designed the computer and the software Is the same energy that observes our game of life .

That may be true, but that is not the same consciousness that we utilise in this reality, at the end of the day, we have to embrace the fact that we are a human being who is experiencing a physical experience within this physical reality, if you think differently then I will look forward to seeing you name written across the sky tonight when you utilise that aspect of self to move the stars and galaxies to write it across the night sky. 🙂

I perceive the oneness that way and although I understand that in our natural state of pure consciousness we are all one, in this physical reality we are not.

Hi Paul .

Paul the illusion Is that any form or plane of existence separates anyone from anything .

You and I can not occupy the same space at the same time as that is physically impossible, likewise the forms of consciousness that we create to exist within this reality are separate and distinct from each other.

This You and I that you are referring to In connection with physicality holds no weight In reference to the You and I that Is not of the physical . Forget about time and space and everything that our universe contains . . . what we are Is In a mindful experience of It all - that’s all .

When we come here we are born as a human being, we have to remain as a human being until we die, irrespective of the mind getting a glimpse of what lies beyond the limitations of our matrix of consciousness, we cannot move forward or backward in time, we cannot fly unaided, we cannot think of being somewhere and then transport ourselves there with a thought, we are human beings with a human beings mind together with other aspects of consciousness that makes up a human being.

The only thing human about what we are paul Is the form that we have . Everything else goes out the window . If we believe what we are Is a human being then we will be confined consciously to humanity . It’s not about having super powers and flying around the skies - If we wanted to do that we would have and already possible have had an experience of being a bird . It’s like saying to a bird prove to me you are God and drive a car (lol) .

Although I do astral travel and I do fly In and around the stars and consciously by thought alone anyone can transport their spirit body to wherever they please .

If I sent you a locked case that was impermeable to x-rays and scans with something locked within it, if your mind was what you are describing, then you would know without asking or breaking open the case, what I had placed within the case and what it was, even if you had never encountered it before!

There are many mind-sets to be attained paul - what you are speaking of would suit a psychic . Although I do predict things that are beyond my conscious knowings . It’s only Information being passed on from one source of energy to another . No frills - No flashing lights . Just an exchange of Information happening .

The mind is responsible for instigating everything you are describing here, everything starts and finishes with a thought.

Who’s thinking those thoughts Paul . Who’s Instigating those thoughts .

No that is a misconception, the mind might well set off thought patterns and beliefs within it creations, but there are other aspects of consciousness which come into play such as our core way of being and our memory consciousness, if we are dealing with an inner conflict between our different aspects of consciousness, then the thinking mind often does not know what to do, or why we feel the way we are feeling.

What I meant Chris Is that lets say for Instance an Individual Is In a dark place a place of sorrow . What we are will be contained within that particular mind-set where we will be observing life In way that reflects the mind-set . A perception of lack, an expression of perhaps low self esteem, (no-one loves me) - I want my life to be different or I want It to end, etc . . I tried to use an ego mind-set as a previous example .

Are you sure that it is not the mind that has to identify and classify the sun as the sun etc, when we encounter something new, which aspect of consciousness tries to understand it and give it a name?

I mentioned that all Is of the mind Paul but It’s what we are that Is In expression within mind that contains our perception of what anything Is . You seem to think unless I have misinterpreted you that the mind has a mind of It’s own and that It has the ability to perceive and evaluate what anything Is . . The mind Is the car and the car needs a driver h hehhehe . (unless It’s one of those new japanese satellite guided cars that doesn’t need a driver) ha haahaha .

That may be true, but that is not the same consciousness that we utilise in this reality, at the end of the day, we have to embrace the fact that we are a human being who is experiencing a physical experience within this physical reality, if you think differently then I will look forward to seeing you name written across the sky tonight when you utilise that aspect of self to move the stars and galaxies to write it across the night sky.

That’s Incorrect . We can have a physical experience and still realize what we are (that Is not of the physical) We can also have a physical experience and believe that what we are Is of the flesh . Many mind-sets are attained within physical experience . Different mind-sets allow the Individual to be conscious of more than meets the eye .

So physical form and physical experience doesn’t limit what we can become consciously aware of .

If you refer to my name being In the stars tonight Paul then when the stars dazzle you will know It’s me . . . ha haha .

x dazzle x

Hi Daz

We create our own realities, within those realities we can conceive all sorts of things, but the only valid things that we can conceive are the things which we can realise.

Yes consciousness extends beyond our physicality, but the mind which was created to allow us to function within this physicality works within this physical reality, yes we are aware that there are things beyond the physical but the thinking mind is completely ignorant of this until we learn to reach beyond its mandate and encounter consciousness in a different form to that which makes it function.

The human mind only exists within physical time, it is created at conception and dissipates when we have experienced a physical experiences, it has no other use but to allow us to function here, we do not require an analytical mind within the oneness because we are complete.

Although we can become aware of the oneness, we have not got the same consciousness as we utilise within the oneness, trying to understand the oneness within our thinking mind, would be like trying to gain an understanding of the person who has created a car by looking at the outside of the car.

What I am trying to say, is that we might perceive pure consciousness from within the confines of our minds, but believing that we can utilise that form of consciousness in our present form will not make it so.

I'm running behind on this discussion, so I'll just pick up a couple of points...

When we come here we are born as a human being, we have to remain as a human being until we die, irrespective of the mind getting a glimpse of what lies beyond the limitations of our matrix of consciousness, we cannot move forward or backward in time, we cannot fly unaided, we cannot think of being somewhere and then transport ourselves there with a thought, we are human beings with a human beings mind together with other aspects of consciousness that makes up a human being.

I think (scuse the pun) that brings us back to what is real or not. If I visualise myself on the surface of the moon, does that mean I am not on the surface of the moon. Whilst my physical being may not be on the surface of the moon, my "I", "Self", true Consciousness or whatever you choose to call it, is on the surface of the moon, whether someone "other" is able to sense that or not.

If I sent you a locked case that was impermeable to x-rays and scans with something locked within it, if your mind was what you are describing, then you would know without asking or breaking open the case, what I had placed within the case and what it was, even if you had never encountered it before!

So now we enter the real of quantum physics. 😉
Schrodinger's cat here we come.
So, you put something in the box and close it. How do you know what is in the box yourself? I could put my awareness into the box and say what I am aware of it in at that moment, which may be different to what you believe is in it, but by the principles of quantum mechanics, both can exists within the box until such a time the box is opened and the contents observed, so we would both be correct.

No that is a misconception, the mind might well set off thought patterns and beliefs within it creations, but there are other aspects of consciousness which come into play such as our core way of being and our memory consciousness, if we are dealing with an inner conflict between our different aspects of consciousness, then the thinking mind often does not know what to do, or why we feel the way we are feeling.

Completely agree. 🙂

I mentioned that all Is of the mind Paul but It’s what we are that Is In expression within mind that contains our perception of what anything Is . You seem to think unless I have misinterpreted you that the mind has a mind of It’s own and that It has the ability to perceive and evaluate what anything Is . . The mind Is the car and the car needs a driver h hehhehe . (unless It’s one of those new japanese satellite guided cars that doesn’t need a driver) ha haahaha .

I think (scuse that pun again hehe!) that we need to be mindful (oops pun again hehe!) of what we mean by the mind. There are various ways we can describe the mind or perhaps I should say ... minds (plural). For example we can talk of the conscious mind as being that mind that we are aware of, with it's thoughts arising and through which our senses trigger memories, thoughts and emotions. We can also have our unconscious mind being that mind which controls our physical body without us having to think, causing our heart to beat and our fingers to move and type etc. and then we have.... awareness which is the awareness that can observe the thoughts of physical mind and the actions of unconscious mind, but in itself cannot be observed. This awareness is not seperate from conscious and unconscious mind (collectively I'll call those two the physical mind) but is attached to them by virtue of the fact it is aware of all. Often this awareness is what is referred to as consciousness, but then that causes it to be confused with the physical conscious mind and perceived to be a creation of those minds, and it becomes limited by this misconception, whereas the awareness is more than those limits of physical mind because it is an awareness that permeates all things, such that it is not limited merely by the physical senses, not just those physical effects that are observed happening unconsciously, but it has a perception beyond such limits and is inclusive of all things.

Amit Goswami mentions in that book I referred to above (which I've started reading) that there is a confusion between these words due to the limits of the English language (something I already knew, but he just reinforces that knowledge). We end up limiting ourselves to being seperate from "other" because of this belief that the consciousness referred to in a spiritual sense is the same as the consciousness that is of our mind alone. This is why I tend to refer to it myself as Awareness because it is not limited to just these conscious/unconscious places of the physical mind.

The physical minds do not perceive all that is, they are just an 'interface' to the physical senses whether they are consciously thought about or unsconsciously observed, but the awareness that is the spiritual consciousness of all things is aware through the senses of the conscious mind and a whole lot more... indeed of everything.

Letting go fo the attachment to mind (that doesn't mean ignoring it's there, but allowing ourselves to not be limited to just it) allows us to let down those false barriers that create the limits we consciously believe exist and BE at one with all things... with awareness itself.

Some refer to this as being God, and that is not necessarily an egotistical thing to say except to those who perceive God as being something seperate or "other" and thus let their physical minds limit themselves to being something "lower" than that which is All, rather than accepting that the awareness is existent in everything, and that we are not just a part of this "God", but that we are all "God" together. Personally, I avoid using the word God because of it's religious connurtations, and the fact it conjurs up the physical minds pre-conceived and limiting idea of a seperate entity that is somehow the superior to our lower selves. We should not put ourselves down in this way as it creates that seperatedness of dualism and, where there is dualism, there is conflict.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Giles

I think (scuse the pun) that brings us back to what is real or not. If I visualise myself on the surface of the moon, does that mean I am not on the surface of the moon. Whilst my physical being may not be on the surface of the moon, my "I", "Self", true Consciousness or whatever you choose to call it, is on the surface of the moon, whether someone "other" is able to sense that or not.

Yes I was attempting to differentiate between the often blurred line between what we imagine to be real within the ponderings of the mind and what can be realised within this reality, we are capable of imagining and creating a lot of things within our realities, but it does not always follow that what we can visualise or imagine can become reality.

As in your point, we can all imagine what it would be like to walk upon the surface of the moon, in time this might become a reality for some as they might be able to climb aboard a space ship and travel there and actually end up walking upon the moon, but until that becomes possible, then it is just a thought process that we are creating within our minds.

The physical minds do not perceive all that is, they are just an 'interface' to the physical senses whether they are consciously thought about or unsconsciously observed, but the awareness that is the spiritual consciousness of all things is aware through the senses of the conscious mind and a whole lot more... indeed of everything.

I agree and that is the point, everything that we conceive within our self has to come through our thinking mind, even when we learn to reach beyond the limitations of the thinking mind, we still have to attempt to process everything we can glimpse outside of the physical reality through our thinking mind which is lock into this reality, because that is what we have to work with, within this reality.

Everything arises from the fullness of self, but the fullness of self has to work within the remit of our thinking minds or else it does not exist for us, we are creatures of our own design and we need to take responsibility for the thoughts which we create within the fullness of self, we are not puppets who have no control, we all have a free will and exercise it every time we choose to think.

We create our own realities, within those realities we can conceive all sorts of things, but the only valid things that we can conceive are the things which we can realise.

Hi Paul .

And whom can limit what we can and what we cannot conceive, perceive, and realize whilst having a physical experience . I agree that we create our own realities so whilst we are In physical experience we can create and allow the realization of what we are to become us . Admittedly the ordinary mind will fight us tooth and nail to keep us from transcending but that where dedication, devotion, focus comes In to play .

Yes consciousness extends beyond our physicality, but the mind which was created to allow us to function within this physicality works within this physical reality, yes we are aware that there are things beyond the physical but the thinking mind is completely ignorant of this until we learn to reach beyond its mandate and encounter consciousness in a different form to that which makes it function.

A physical mind-set will contain the ego, and the perception of separation and a mind-set that fuses with the Intellect and was never designed to allow universal consciousness to Impress and become the Individual . I agree that one has to reach beyond this ordinary mind-set . Which strengthens the point I am making and that Is we are not limited or restricted to the ordinary mind -sets just because we are experiencing a human physical experience .

The human mind only exists within physical time, it is created at conception and dissipates when we have experienced a physical experiences, it has no other use but to allow us to function here, we do not require an analytical mind within the oneness because we are complete.

I agree that we do not require an analytical mind within the oneness .

Although we can become aware of the oneness, we have not got the same consciousness as we utilise within the oneness, trying to understand the oneness within our thinking mind, would be like trying to gain an understanding of the person who has created a car by looking at the outside of the car.

I agree .

What I am trying to say, is that we might perceive pure consciousness from within the confines of our minds, but believing that we can utilise that form of consciousness in our present form will not make it so.

I don’t agree with that paul . You can retain human form whilst your Individual spirit and mind can explore the universe and realise what you are . Is It not possible to be of human form and experience the real love and Joy and Peace of what you are . Our human form Is only a piece of flesh, It Is not who we are and experiencing the flesh does not confine us to the ordinary thinking mind .

Ramana of all people proved that he could be of the body but not of the world .

You yourself have said In a sense that you experience a state of being when you converse with us and you are not coming from an Intellectual aspect of the mind .

x daz x

I think (scuse that pun again hehe!) that we need to be mindful (oops pun again hehe!) of what we mean by the mind. There are various ways we can describe the mind or perhaps I should say ... minds (plural). For example we can talk of the conscious mind as being that mind that we are aware of, with it's thoughts arising and through which our senses trigger memories, thoughts and emotions. We can also have our unconscious mind being that mind which controls our physical body without us having to think, causing our heart to beat and our fingers to move and type etc. and then we have.... awareness which is the awareness that can observe the thoughts of physical mind and the actions of unconscious mind, but in itself cannot be observed. This awareness is not seperate from conscious and unconscious mind (collectively I'll call those two the physical mind) but is attached to them by virtue of the fact it is aware of all. Often this awareness is what is referred to as consciousness, but then that causes it to be confused with the physical conscious mind and perceived to be a creation of those minds, and it becomes limited by this misconception, whereas the awareness is more than those limits of physical mind because it is an awareness that permeates all things, such that it is not limited merely by the physical senses, not just those physical effects that are observed happening unconsciously, but it has a perception beyond such limits and is inclusive of all things.

Hi Giles .

I agree that there are many takes on the mind . My fundamental understandings of the mind Is that - All Is of the mind .

We can then break down Individual experience had that can contain Individual understandings of their mindful connection by means of being consciously aware within / of the mind .

Whilst what we are Is In experience of the mind (what we are) Is also of the mind so that realizations and knowing the self Is possible .

In essence there Is no-thing other than what we are that Is of the mind or beyond . Duality / separation / ordinary mind-sets will give the Impression that what we are Is not alone within our creation . (lol) .

x daz x