what is forgiveness?

RE: what is forgiveness?

wow wayfarer, l really enjoyed reading that. I really resonates truth, thanks for sharing...Northstar:)

RE: what is forgiveness?

If you are denying that you blame, then l suggest that you are in a denial stage of healing.

Hi northstar

When you make statements like the above, it sounds very much as though you are telling the previous poster ie wayfarer what he is feeling and the position he's in vis a vis that feeling.

Wayfarer, on the other hand, speaks only of how he personally feels.

Would it perhaps lead to less friction on the forum if you were just to talk about how you think and feel rather than how you think other people should think and feel?

Sunanda

Edited to add that I posted without having read your last post, northstar. Now I don't know what to think of your posts...maybe you just like writing stuff:D

RE: what is forgiveness?

Sun,

So dear, what are your contributions on forgiveness?

;););)

Your friend, northstar

RE: what is forgiveness?

according to me forgivness is the quality of the man, its habbit

RE: what is forgiveness?

Dear Northstar, my friend:D

I forgive everybody everything always. I don't blame anyone but myself for anything that happens to me.

Everything that happens is a lesson, even if I can't see it as such at the time.

I'm not in denial, honest!

Sorry I had a go at you earlier[X(]

Love
Sunanda xxx (Sun? Very nice, thank you!:))

RE: what is forgiveness?

Sun, and l forgive you, and l took a lesson from your post, because l knew that it was from another area of this forum in which my contributions were also not appreciate by a few. But that is what life is about, some people will run with you and some people will not.

--northstar

RE: what is forgiveness?

...and the comments that l have made are in gratitude and humblness, because l had many wonderful teachers while l was going through a terrible time in my life.

The answer to get myself out of the mess was to forgive others and myself. The comments l post are only to present some views that l hope might spark the best of dialogues withina person'sdeepest self. Because at the end of the day all that really matters is that you forgive yourself. That might sound selfish but if we are not healed than how can we give to others with the very best of our self.

--northstar

[url]What Forgiveness Is Not, Healing[/url]

I've been told that to forgive, you first have to judge. Yet judging another is an earthly fault not allowed on the "other side."
Does this make any sense. ???

I've been told that to forgive, you first have to judge.

Who told you that? Doesn't resonate with me, I'm afraid.

Who told you that? Doesn't resonate with me, I'm afraid.

Sunanda, How can you forgive something if you haven't first judge whether its right or wrong.

regards

Sunanda, How can you forgive something if you haven't first judge whether its right or wrong.

regards

I think I see where you're coming from but it's your use of the word 'judge' which is problematical: 'judge' implies criticism. The way you're using it here it could be replaced by 'decide' or 'evalutate'. But I also then have a problem with your 'right or wrong': someone might say something hurtful to me which is in fact 'right' ( ie correct). I can forgive them for saying it though. IMHO 'right and wrong' don't come into it. I think you're splitting hairs here actually.

I think I see where you're coming from but it's your use of the word 'judge' which is problematical: 'judge' implies criticism. The way you're using it here it could be replaced by 'decide' or 'evalutate'. But I also then have a problem with your 'right or wrong': someone might say something hurtful to me which is in fact 'right' ( ie correct). I can forgive them for saying it though. IMHO 'right and wrong' don't come into it. I think you're splitting hairs here actually.

Sunandra,
I use judge solely as a balance of probabilities, with no criticism involved.
Right or wrong, refers to the act that may or may not be regarded as requiring forgiveness.
I will add IMO just in case.

Regards

I'm not comfortable with the concept that forgiveness requires judgement. Forgiveness comes from hurt, hurt is an emotion. Therefore forgiveness is an emotion and comes from the subconscious level.

I don't think we can choose forgiveness, but we can enable forgiveness.

Forgiveness acknowleges the hurt we feel and does not make it into denial. Forgiveness gives release and closure so we can move on, but it does not include forgetting.

Forgiveness is powerful because it heals and restores.

Without forgiveness we are incomplete.

Myarka.

I'm not comfortable with the concept that forgiveness requires judgement. Forgiveness comes from hurt, hurt is an emotion. Therefore forgiveness is an emotion and comes from the subconscious level.

I don't think we can choose forgiveness, but we can enable forgiveness.

Forgiveness acknowleges the hurt we feel and does not make it into denial. Forgiveness gives release and closure so we can move on, but it does not include forgetting.

Forgiveness is powerful because it heals and restores.

Without forgiveness we are incomplete.

Myarka.

Words of wisdom - thank you Myarka.

I've been told that to forgive, you first have to judge. Yet judging another is an earthly fault not allowed on the "other side."
Does this make any sense. ???

Yes, I can see the meaning in this, scommstech.

If I were allowed to be picky though, I would remove the words 'not allowed'. Whatever the 'other side' is, I imagine there isn't such a phrase as 'not allowed' as that, to me, can imply disharmony and my heart tells me such things like that do not even come into the equation on the 'other side'.:)

RxXx

Yes, I can see the meaning in this, scommstech.

If I were allowed to be picky though, I would remove the words 'not allowed'. Whatever the 'other side' is, I imagine there isn't such a phrase as 'not allowed' as that, to me, can imply disharmony and my heart tells me such things like that do not even come into the equation on the 'other side'.:)

RxXx

Yep I can go with that.
Regards

I'm not comfortable with the concept that forgiveness requires judgement. Forgiveness comes from hurt, hurt is an emotion. Therefore forgiveness is an emotion and comes from the subconscious level.

I don't think we can choose forgiveness, but we can enable forgiveness.

Forgiveness acknowleges the hurt we feel and does not make it into denial. Forgiveness gives release and closure so we can move on, but it does not include forgetting.

Forgiveness is powerful because it heals and restores.

Without forgiveness we are incomplete.

Myarka.

I am most moved by the above, Myarka. So much so that I'm going to copy and paste this post into my computer and take it out and read it from time to time. (I have a collection of aphorisms and pithy paragraphs.) Actually the more I think about it the more I am blown away by your words. Thank you so much.
xxx

I'm not comfortable with the concept that forgiveness requires judgement. Forgiveness comes from hurt, hurt is an emotion. Therefore forgiveness is an emotion and comes from the subconscious level.

I don't think we can choose forgiveness, but we can enable forgiveness.

Forgiveness acknowleges the hurt we feel and does not make it into denial. Forgiveness gives release and closure so we can move on, but it does not include forgetting.

Forgiveness is powerful because it heals and restores.

Without forgiveness we are incomplete.

Its vey nice that it makes you thing of the time you have forgave but not forgot in the relflection you always remember,
Thats why is probably one of the harder things to do in a relationship, as you forgive think you forget but always remember,
M

Like this! Simple and true.

I try to forgive as soon as I've been hurt as holding on to someone elses negativity is a waste of energy.

I tell myself that everyone makes mistakes and everyone is trying to find a place to belong, whenever their chosen path has inavertably crossed with mine.

This is an interesting subject at the present time, because the killers of James Bulger are in the news again, and the reaction to such stories always demonstrates what a very unchristian society we are, even though most people still tick that box as their religion. Many people would agree with the woman interviewed on the radio who, despite never having met them, said "they're evil and they always will be". Many people seem to think that we are all born with a fixed character that can never be changed, either by our own or other peoples' efforts. In which case repentance will always be hypocrisy and forgiveness will always be pointless, cos they'll only do it again.

The other extreme, much less common, is to underestimate the cost of forgiveness, thus trivialising the idea. True forgiveness involves SACRIFICE, which is actually the key to power. In forgiving someone you are sacrificing the right to revenge. In my opinion you cannot truly forgive from a position of weakness. True forgiveness means voluntarily giving up the right to revenge yourself upon the person who has wronged you, as a free-will choice. so I think the peace process in the North of Ireland is a good example of this, because it was actually the "men of violence" who made that work, by saying "I'm entitled to kill your cousin because you killed my brother in law, and I have the means to do it, but I choose not to."

The concept of apologising is related to the concept of forgiveness. I personally despise the modern fashion of political leaders making collective apologies. It is grossly impertinent for anyone to apologise on another's behalf, when that other person might well not have done so if they had still been present.

Defining forgiveness as "choosing to refrain from avenging or punishing a wrong", there is certainly a place for it, but maybe not always. However if we define forgiveness as "choosing not to perpetuate a permanent state of rage and resentment" then I'd agree that's always a good idea, due to the great waste of energy involved.

Hear is a quote on forgiveness form one of my favourite books: Beyond the Personality: the beginner's guide to enlightenment. (Honestly, I'm not trying to get the whole two books onto this forum, it's just a couple of points have come up this week)

Why is it crucially important to forgive?

In your life it can happen that you are wronged - unfairly, unjustly and apparently without rhyme or reason. Your sense of injury, in such a situation, is acute and very often considerably justified. If your pain is deep, and your sense of having been wronged is considerable, you may feel it is impossible, indeed stupid, to forgive one who has so clearly and unjustly mistreated you.

Be clear: when such situations occur in your life, you are being tested by the process that is reality. The operator, structuring the situation to create your pain and sorrow, is the implacable law of karma. Whether you are able to forgive, or not, will significantly determine the shape of your life.

Christianity teaches the moral necessity for forgiveness. The supreme example of forgiveness, in our Western cultures, is set by Jesus accepting and forgiving the suffering of his crucifixion, so that the prophecies of his culture might be fulfilled, and primitive peoples raised to an ethically-based civilization. The secular Implicate Technology teaching of the clear setting face to face with reality deals only with the mechanics of the process of forgiveness - the morality of each situation is dealt with by your responding positively to the promptings of your karma.

The mechanics of the process of forgiveness are simple. If you remain attached to your suffering, and are unable to forgive, you will continue to incur negative karma. If you forgive the person or persons who wronged you, you will be relieved from the weight and burden of your accumulated negative karma, according to the degree of your forgiveness.

If you refuse to forgive the wrongs done to you, you will remain bound to the pattern of pain and sorrow which has brought about such a significant opportunity in your life. If you refuse to forgive, you are reinforcing your commitment to unenlightened behaviour. Reality will so structure itself that the opportunities to forgive will continue until you learn the lesson—this means you will continue to suffer through the workings of your karma.

To commit an act of genuine forgiveness is to release yourself from bondage to a specific pattern of pain and sorrow in your life. To forgive is to confirm your commitment to enlightenment, to affirm your determination to act in accordance with the flow of reality. Now reality will so structure itself, because you have learnt an important lesson, that your life moves on to the next lesson. This does not mean the end of your pain and sorrow; it simply means an opportunity to move closer to enlightenment.

The act of forgiveness is simplicity itself. Words alone are not forgiveness. Reality is beyond mere words such as: "I forgive you".

For the forgiveness to be a genuine release from the burden of accumulated negative karma, it must involve a sincere stepping away from attachment to your pain and sorrow. Mere words may fool other people; they can never fool karma. Within yourself, you must become committed to detachment from your suffering - only then does the genuine act of forgiveness take place.

The first step in the sincere act of forgiveness is to become detached from your negative emotional responses. Calm, slow, meditative breathing will help you to achieve this. Think about this teaching in the context of your own life, long and carefully.

The second step in the sincere act of forgiveness is to convey the fact that you have forgiven to the person or persons who have wronged you. This can be conveyed in simple words, when and if a suitable opportunity arises. What you have to say, according to circumstances, is some variation on this theme: "These things happen. I was hurt, but we can all learn from experience".

Do not, foolishly, believe that a genuine act of forgiveness will cause your pain to disappear rapidly, nor that your life will suddenly be filled with what you desire as a reward. The consequence of a sincere act of forgiveness is to release you from the burden of your accumulated negative karma. The true benefit you derive, freed from attachment to your pain and sorrow, is to be set clearly face to face with your experience of reality. In this way, you progress along the path to enlightenment.

Wise words, swhypno and David...
I love the quote from Gary Craig "Resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die".
To rephrase: forgiveness is when I stop drinking poison.

Masha

Hi David,

I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea of forgiveness I'm afraid. How can you forgive a bad person for harming you? The only way is to let go of what it means to think there is such a thing as a bad person. This is more about understanding the emptiness of the idea of a permanent self than it is about not condemning a person for committing a wicked act.

Does the victim of a wicked act deserve to suffer again through the emotional hurt and anger they have? Of course they don't deserve this pain any more than they deserve the pain they experience as a result of being a victim. But yes, there is only one person who can decide they wish to be free from this hurt and that is the victim.

Wishing to be free of the pain of suffering is the first step. Then how do you achieve this? Wishing yourself well is a good start. Accepting your state of hurt is next. Then being with it and letting things heal. This is really a loving state of being with yourself.

But this cannot happen by reinforcing the pain of hurt and anger at being the victim of injustice by telling yourself that you are the innocent victim of a wicked act committed by a wicked person. This part has to be undone by thinking through thoughts about what a so called "wicked act," a "bad person" and even perhaps what an "innocent victim" is.

In the Buddhist tradition loving kindness practice is used. First of all cultivating loving kindness to oneself. If this is hard then just thinking of someone you love and cultivating that feeling. Then bringing that feeling back to yourself.

After cultivating loving kindness towards yourself, then cultivating it for a loved one, a person you have neutral feelings for and then a person who has hurt you. Then you can do this for all beings.

It's very interesting what happens when you wish love kindness on a person you don't like or has hurt you. It's really about being kind to oneself in the end. Not letting your heart hold hurt in any shape of form.

In Tibetan Buddhism this idea of sending loving kindness to all, even those who have caused you harm is taken a step further. In Tonglen you actively wish to take on the causes of suffering of those around you and then send wishes of the causes of happiness from your heart out to them. The practice means "exchanging self for other."

What is self? Where is it? Whose self can cause you harm?

Norbu

Hi David,

I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea of forgiveness I'm afraid.

Hi Norbu,
Well, OK, but to "forgiveness" we could add you, me, them, fact, stage, world, personality, uncomfortable, necessity, David, Norbu, blocks, progress, levels, everyone, everything and enlightenment, couldn't we.

The fact remains that at the stage of consciousness for which that paragraph was written, the necessity for forgiveness appears to exist. The inability to forgive everyone and everything is a block on progress, at that level.

I use the Metta Bhavana just as you describe. It is truly magical.

Hi David,

Yes I accept that this is a lot about words and what we construe them to mean. And in many ways I accept that the quote you have offered us is full of wisdom.

Mindfully coming back to the breath; coming home to the moment in the body, as your quote states is the first step and helps to detach from a negative emotional response and the personal narrative that sustains the emotional pain. But I think it's also helpful to just be with the emotional pain that is a natural response and not to feel some kind of compulsion to move on too quickly. It's important to accept the hurt and not to judge oneself harshly for any feelings that come. This does help the hurt subside in it's own time.

I also do accept that saying "I forgive you" is a powerful way to move on, to heal and to make a step towards a deeper awakening. But it's not good to feel under compulsion to do this or to judge oneself for not being able to replace resentment, anger and hurt with loving forgiveness.

I guess I just think it's helpful to break this step down a bit more. We have to find some way of generating a loving understanding both of ourselves, the victim, and the person who has caused us harm.

To do this we have to find a way of understanding that the perpetrator of a wicked act is little different from ourselves in many ways. A harmful act is either caused by some kind of lack of awareness or by will. In the end a wilful act of harm; to think that self interest can be served by harming another is a delusion as it will just bring more suffering in the end. It too is then a lack of understanding. It is a form of ignorance.

So ignorance is the cause of harm, not a bad person. No-one can escape the inevitable result of ignorance - suffering - until wisdom comes. And we are all subject to ignorance to some degree. So the only sensible thing to wish is the opportunity for wisdom and insight to come to the "bad person." When wisdom comes they will no longer act out of ignorance and will in time change no longer cause more suffering to themselves and others. In this respect we are all the same and this wish is our opportunity to increase our experience of love, which brings healing, which is merit, and cause us to transform our own ignorance into wisdom.

I guess that's just a fairly long explanation of what "forgiveness" means...

Norbu

Hi Norbu,

yes, I agree. Hurrah, eh!

And I've foregone the opportunity to quote from chapter 6 of Beyond the Personality:the beginner's guide etc etc which deals with emotions, for which I deserve credit for restraint!

🙂

d

For me to forgive is a place that sits in there is nothing to forgive

And for me it’s a mind switch
There is nothing to forgive ever forgiveness dose not exist for me

Reading all the posts in the thread, you are inclined to think that most people are inclined to believe that forgiveness is a sort of release, letting something go.

Truly of course nobody can strictly define in words what forgiveness is because it can only be understood by being felt.

I would like to ask the question of what is the difference between forgiving and forgetting? Sometimes semantics play an important role in understanding, for example when a person says "forget", it means they receive something, process it and move on. For example, when you take an exam, after the exam, most people tend to forget what they have just been tested on. Some information was retained by them, but they don't know about it. This forgetting. Somebody does something, you note it, but you let it go, because it is not significant enough for you.

Forgiving is when someone takes the emotions that are in you and releases them outside, when its not just a fact of getting something in you, but also giving something to the outside world in return. For example, if somebody hurts you greatly on an emotional level, than for you to rebuild, you need to release some emotions on the outside world in order to heal. This is forgiving.

The process of forgiving contains inside of it the release of emotion. As long as the person keeps the emotion inside of them, they can never forgive. They can forget, but not forgive, in my opinion.

Here is an excerpt from my Level 1 EFT Course: -

After the basic instincts for survival (Maslow's hierarchy of needs), there comes a psychological reflex action which drives just about all actions and reactions.

First understand that every living thing on this earth does ANYTHING for one (or both) of two reasons: To avoid pain, or to receive pleasure! Why do people eat chocolate? – Because it gives them pleasure. Why do we avoid looking directly at the sun? – To avoid pain of burning out our retinas and optic nerves!!!

Once you have absorbed and accepted this fact, you can look into and see these mechanisms driving everything that we do. When we can understand what is behind all actions or in-actions, it is a simple step to forgive anyone of anything, as you will know which of these drivers were involved in the decision to act in that particular way. Many limiting beliefs are installed in this manner in early years.

A last quote on Forgiveness from a master of the human psyche; Anthony Robbins: -

"The secret of success is learning how to use pain and pleasure instead of having pain and pleasure use you. If you do that, you're in control of your life. If you don't, life controls you."

I trust this adds to your base of knowledge.

The process of forgiving contains inside of it the release of emotion. As long as the person keeps the emotion inside of them, they can never forgive. They can forget, but not forgive, in my opinion.

Wise words indeed SeaWay. I wholeheartedly agree. I don't believe one can truly forget without releasing the emotion, because the unexpressed emotions will be the constant reminder perhaps firmly locked away, but still there nonetheless, making forgetting actually impossible.