what is forgiveness?

RE: what is forgiveness?

"What is forgiveness"

Letting go of all emotions of a situation in order to cleanse the body of hurt and bad energy. Otherwise we walk around, weighed down by our baggage and can never be free. You will never be free until you do neither, dont worry im looking in the mirror too when i say this, lol

L+L
A

RE: what is forgiveness?

I don't think i'm adding anything new...lol...my opinion is still essentially the same...

but I was thinking about someone that I used to hate...When I still hated him, I would have forgiven him. I don't hate him anymore, and forgiveness is sort of a moot issue. I've moved on. There is no emotional attachment to him in my life anymore--not "negative" or "positive" He is what he is. There is no place for him in my life. I will never like him. But, I don't hate him, but I never forgave him either. As I said, the window where I could have forgiven him--and I consider forgiveness a two way street--is closed...it closed gradually as I moved further and further on in my life.

I think we are all different and I think we all heal differently. For some, forgiveness might be necessary. I don't think it is for all though.

RE: what is forgiveness?

ORIGINAL: Crystarra
--and I consider forgiveness a two way street--

Interesting you should say that.
So do you feel that you could never forgive a person who hurt you in some way, but has since passed on? There is no way that they would ever be able to reciprocate any forgiveness you had for them?

RE: what is forgiveness?

There is no way that they would ever be able to reciprocate any forgiveness you had for them?

there isn't?

aside from that, reciprocation isn't exactly the word i'd use...although it is probably going to usually be a part of it. it's more like...forgiveness is work and both have to be willing to work for it.

RE: what is forgiveness?

ORIGINAL: Crystarra

There is no way that they would ever be able to reciprocate any forgiveness you had for them?

there isn't?

okay, yeah, I was referring to in-person coming up to you and apologizing sort of thing. Yes if you bring spiritual beliefs into it then someone may choose to forgive someone who has died and believe that they receive an apology from that dead person.

aside from that, reciprocation isn't exactly the word i'd use...although it is probably going to usually be a part of it. it's more like...forgiveness is work and both have to be willing to work for it.

Assuming we don't include spirituality in this though, a person who doesn't find forgiveness with a person who subsequently dies, may be left feeling that there is no way they will ever be truly free of the "wrong"-doing against them.

But getting back to what you initially said, re. forgiveness being a two way street and that road has gradually closed as you have moved on. How would you feel if that person suddenly came back into your life and you had no choice in that matter? What if they came back and wanted to apologise for what they had done? Would you be able to re-open that road to forgiveness?

Just a thought?

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: what is forgiveness?

WOW! this is a fast movng thread.... My abuse was all sorts covering many aspects.. & it wasn't until my mother had passed on that i felt safe i suppose. That i sought help. Yrs later & was using one of the tools that i was taught about to help me over a new hurdle. With the combination of Meditation Reiki & NLP I transcended the gap between me & my Mother I met her in my safe place that it wasn't just my inner child that was in tatters but So was my mum & I saw her sorrow her pain, & together we comunicated. I told her of my Pain & She showed me hers. & that day forgiveness was achieved. Instead of walking up my path to my future with just me & my Innerchild All three of us walked hand in hand together.

Forgiveness can go any where be sent by anyone.

Walk gently with love light & peace in your hearts.. Maria xxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

not really. I'm not saying I'd be a hateful wench. But I do have a choice who is allowed in my life. I'm not talking literally, if I have to see them, because I do actually have to see them. I'm polite, civil, don't cause a scene or anything like that. I respect that this person has relationships with other people in my life and stuff like that.

I think you are equating nonforgiveness with active hatred or even passive hatred (if there is such a thing). I see it as simply that...nonforgiveness.

as far as the forgiveness of someone who has passed on goes, everyone is different and I do think that different people heal and need different things for healing and that they are all valid. Why should there be one "forumala" or one set of requirements needed for everyone when every person and every situation is unique? No matter how similar people or situations are, they are never identical.

I work with victims of sex abuse and domestic violence which is where a lot of my comments are coming from. I find myself having a very different way of looking at the word/concept of "victim" than seems to be the popular view these days. For me, saying that someone is a victim acknowledges that what happened to them was wrong; that they were violated; that the person who did it had no right to do so; that they were in a situtation in which they were powerless. I'm a fan of empowerment, and I know that we make choices which put us in situations and in that way, we are never powerless. A person who is raped on a date made the choice to go out on a date or get in a car, or any other numerous decisions--but there is a point in which they became a victim and were powerless. There are things in life that we can not control and one of those things is the actions of another. Now some people would be able to forgive the rapist; some people would not. It's holding onto bitterness and hatred that I would focus on--that I think is destructive. I think that we like to skip over the "victim" part these days and go straight to "survivor." I don't see why it is not possible to be both? People surivive being victimized...but we are scared of the word victim just like we are scared to say that sometimes people are powerless. This is personal preference, bias and philosophy which I know many do not agree with and that is obvoiusly fine..lol.
the reason I bring it up though is that your comment of being truly free of the "wrong" I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I think you are talking about not having any negative feelings regarding the "wrong." A violation is wrong--we can argue over what constitutes a violation, and I believe we are arguing over whether anything is really wrong...lol..but in my view, to violate someone is wrong. In my experience--and many have different ones--people who are raped, abused, or seriously traumatized are always going to be affected by it. This is NOT saying that they will always be "weak" or "victims." I'm close with someone who was raped--she has dealt, but there are certain sexual situations which she avoids. I was friends with someone who was abused by her husband for many years. She is now in a very healthy and positive marriage (or so she says and I don't see any reason to doubt it...lol). She told me that she has a "rule" that when they argue, they have to hold hands. Her reasoning is that "hands held in love can't be used in anger." This is a technique which is very healthy, but which she might not have had to use had she not been violated. So in that way, can it be said she "let go of the wrong done"? I don't know because i'm not quite sure how you are defining it I guess. If you say no, then I say it's impossible to ever do so...forgiveness or no forgiveness. If you say yes, then I say that is more important than "forgiveness" and is possible to do without "forgiving".

RE: what is forgiveness?

Maria, [sm=hug.gif]
That is good that you have found forgiveness. There are many ways of achieving this and you found the one(s) that suited you best.

Crysterra,
I guess by wrong-doing I'm referring to the emotional feelings that the person is left with after the incident(s).
The memories will always exist but the emotional feelings brought up by those memories are what hurts and destroys our lives.

By closing your road to forgiveness between yourself and the perpetrators, are you not supressing those emotional feelings. Would those feelings not be released again if you came face to face with the perpetrators and they said that they wanted to apologise for all the wrong-doings they inflicted upon you?

Yes, every situation is unique and every person will need to find their own way to deal with their issues. As healers (of whatever form, Councilling, Reiki, EFT etc.) it is our wanting to make options available to people who need healing so that they can at least have options open to them.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: what is forgiveness?

no, I don't feel that I'm suppressing my feelings...I've let them go. I don't like the person, but I don't have intense emotional reactions--one way or the other. That relationship is dead...emotional channels are closed. I don't think he feels the need to apologize any more than I feel the need for an apology. Maybe, if some day down the road, he would come up to me and say, I'm sorry...I screwed up...i'd feel differently. I can't know unless it would happen. But I doubt it would.

RE: what is forgiveness?

Yes, this really is a good thread.

Kim, I have to apologise for not getting back to you. I must have inadvertantly changed my subscriptions to "only show new threads" - I thought it was very quiet around here! Then I popped back and realised I've missed days of posts.

You asked about some links on forgiveness - well, I looked up an old post (one that has been deleted now it's reached its first birthday) and found these. Also found on the same file the wonderful story of Wild Bill Cody and I don't think it hurts how ever many times I repeat this wonderful story of forgivenss, so here goes. First, the links:

How do I begin to forgive

I have a feeling the link you wanted was the report of a talk by Dr. Frederic Luskin at the Harvard Medical School's Spirituality & Healing in Medicine conference in 2002. This was a quote from it:

Dr. Luskin's interest in forgiveness is a pragmatic one. "Forgiveness is reducing suffering," he said, "which is the same as opening your heart. You have to practice opening your heart. Life gives you many reasons to close your heart, and you have to work at keeping it open."

I just went to check it, but it's been removed from as they are streamlining their articles. However, found this instead, from the same conference with quotes from many of the speakers there - it's excellent:

Forgive and your health won't forget

And now, here is my favourite story of forgiveness:

It is from a book called "Return from tomorrow" by Ritchie

"Let me share with you the most lovely example of responding rather than reacting to persecution. Wild Bill Cody was the name of a Jewish, Polish man in a concentration camp. Many thought when he met him he obviously hadn’t been there long because his posture was erect, his eyes bright, his energy indefatigable. Since he was fluent in 5 languages he became a kind of unofficial camp translator. Everyone went to him with all sorts of problems; .... though Wild Bill worked fifteen and sixteen hours a day, he showed no signs of weariness. While the rest were drooping with fatigue, he seemed to gain strength. ... His compassion for his fellow-prisoners and his joy glowed on his face.

Then it came to light that Wild Bill had been in the camp for six years;
he had lived on the same starvation diet, slept in the same airless and
disease-ridden barracks as everyone else, but without the least physical or mental deterioration.

Perhaps even more amazing, every group in the camp looked on him as a friend. He was the one to whom quarrels between warring inmates were brought for arbitration. One day, after discussing the difficulty of forgiving others, Wild Bill leaned back in the upright chair and sipped at his drink. "We lived in the Jewish section of Warsaw," he began slowly, the first words he had spoken about himself, "my wife, our two daughters, and our three little boys. When the invaders reached our street they lined everyone against a wall and opened up with machine guns. I begged to be allowed to die with my family, but they put me in a work group."

He paused, "I had to decide right then," he continued, "whether to let
myself hate the soldiers who had done this. It was an easy decision,
really. I was a lawyer. In my practice I had seen too often what hate
could do to people’s minds and bodies. Hate had just killed the six people who mattered most to me in the world. I decided then that I would spend the rest of my life - whether it was a few days or many years - loving every person I came in contact with."

Loving every person . . . this was the power that kept that man alive,
well and sharing light and joy with his fellow prisoners in the face of
unbelievable persecution and conditions. "

Love and peace,

Judy

RE: what is forgiveness?

Dear Judy

Bless you and thank you for the links.

Sad to hear that threads are deleted after a year when there is so much valuable information on some of the forums.

Glad that I have collected some of my old data and this as prompted me to collect some more.

I agree with Maria, spirit also ask for forgiveness my own father apologised many times but yet I had healed the memory and did not understand why he was still holding on to it.

The spirit realms also pray for us too!

Love beyond measure

kim xx

RE: what is forgiveness?

on the flip side...and to be totally fair, this is how i look at not being forgiven myself. I don't know if i've ever done anything that someone just can't forgive me for. Maybe I have...I like to think not. But it is certainly possible. I'm no better or worse than most people. I think that it would be hard to accept not being forgiven...but in the end, I think that I could learn to forgive myself as long as I learned how not to do it and how to be a better person from it. So I don't see not being forgiven as something that is going to keep me from growing--in fact, it might spur me to think even more about my actions and the consequences.

does that make sense? i'm a little slap happy right now...lol [:-]

I might nto be able to make amends to an individual, but I might be able to try to society--and I just would have to accept that as a consequence of my actions and move on from there.

I can't help but feel that in some ways, we are saying the same thing, but using different terms. We all seem to define forgiveness differently.

RE: what is forgiveness?

Dear Crystarra

You have a willingness and that is all it takes to make peace with the self and in time, as I feel sure you know everything elses falls into place.

May peace be with you always

Kim xx

RE: what is forgiveness?

hi all

i see forgiveness as a process of exchange,

almost a two way thing, if someone would / could not accept my forgiveness then it isnt complete, and that emotion remains in the air.

or if i were to be appologised to for the wrong reasons i would find it hard to accept.

i see many wrong doings during my day, but the problems i observe leave question marks around forgiveness, people appologise seeking forgiveness and the recipiant at no point felt a sorry was needed, and vice versa, feeling an appology is needed when the other party feels the situation is not deserving.

people apoligise to me, what for? i wasnt offended, they appologise for there own need not mine, and i have been guilty of this also. this controdicts what said earlier in respects of a two way thing, but this is observations, there is no wrong or right just an understanding.

but i do come across situations where the pain inflicted could never be healed with forgiveness, where the other f word is used forget.

can i put appology on my cv with my other ology's?

sorry about the spelling and the fragmentation, tapping away while at work.

take care

brian

xxxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

Forgiveness has already been answered by some quite eloquent posts here perfectly, the next question is, when you going to start doing it?. And if you cant why not?, and does it matter to you if you never did, but didnt realise you cant evolve without getting rid of your clutter. Hats off to all those who try, I say it pretty matter of factly, but its a hard hard thing to do. And for the record Ive forgiven them all and I still love them. As I do myself.

RE: what is forgiveness?

Akinaada,

People have to earn forgiveness, IMO. Just bestowing it on those who have wronged a person isn't going to matter a row of beans.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

So Patsy,
to pose the same question as I did above for Crystarra, what about if the person who "wronged" has passed on. How would they earn your forgiveness then? Would you never be able to forgive them in that case?

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: what is forgiveness?

Giles,

I was abused by a neighbour when a child. He has since passed on. I forgave him a long while ago because I now know that he knew no better.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

I do know what i suggest is one of the hardest things to do. But its not about us, waiting for the baddy to redeem themselves, its about greasing up the rails of our life without as much focused anger, hurt or pain in our life. To let go, of all feelings for that person. To understand that your situation was not in vain, it wasnt a harsh world trying to break you for no good reason. It makes you stronger. I think i have to believe that at the moment. As without wanting any sympathy im having a very tough ride with severe physical problems. And life is taken each and every day. And if this is all in vain, for no good reason, or any suffering, whats the point in being alive??. I could be paying back Karma, i could be on a mission to find a cure, and from that cure I would find My Vocation in life. We dont make it easy for ourselves sometimes to trully learn from our mistakes, we ignore so much in life, and cover over things that stop us from trully being free from all focused, angst and deep inner fear, and even hatred. Its all chains in your life. And we run so fast from it. As Its no easy thing to do. When you think of that person, and the feelings you get. Wheres the hurt, but in you. And if they were forever in the dark, how would you ever be free of that. As when you cut the ties its another chain cut to set you free. Also to add another twist to this. I think that energy vibrations which surround us, sometimes imprison us. If we say So and so is "BAD". The energy of that pattern keeps the individual soul In bondage of never given any "Faith" in redemption. And the biggest redemption of all is when you learn to forgive yourself. We have all done wrong, all fell foul of a bad moment. And we feel so bad what we have done wrong, and realise we are wrong. But if we are unforgivable beings, we will live in an unforgiveable world. Ive been bullied at school, who hasnt, but for so long after that for years i felt incredible injustice and anger towards this one inparticular person. I met him about a year ago. Turns out he had a fall about 7 years ago at work and it has severely left him in pain. Because the spine is severely damaged and hes losing the ability to walk, also his nervous system will pack up and he will be brain damaged such was the damage. When i saw him ironically it was on the eve of another pivotal op. He was able to walk, with crutches, profusely sweating due to the pain, and was drugged up with Morphine. I hope i didnt wish that on him, But i do know i did, at the time of being bullied I thought death wasnt punishment enough. I do hope I didnt contribute to that. And as so many twists on events of my life goes, i found out 5 months before he started bullying me his father died. Theres a reason for everything. I spoke to him and only wished him well, in his eyes I knew he remembered, and i gave him a hug and wished him well. To be honest i moved away so i do not know if hes still alive. But Forgiveness of self and others is the biggest thing you will do in a lifetime, it may be tough but it will be the most redeemable life freeing experience possible. Its letting go of all the things that hurt you. Sometimes we can be so blind to the fact that we have played a part in our own downfall, and so self forgiveness is important too. Abused children blame themselves, how wrong. Go easy on yourself, and try to show the love for your children, to yourself, we all deserve that, and we deserve to be free of pain and hurt. For whatever ive caused , and I myself have got it so wrong, I apologise to all those i have wronged. But whatever i have done especially of late I never did it purely out of hatred or spite. If it was it was a matter of perception and interpretation on their part.

Another thing How long should we rap ourselves up in guilt, stabbing ourselves for our wrongs, and calling us "naughty Girls or boys". Until those that hold us in judgement deem us fit to be worthy. But Judgement only exists in the vengeful sides of ourselves but to highlight the inadequacy

RE: what is forgiveness?

when to forgive?

when im working with those who have experienced abuse, forgivness is a tool i use with my clients, but it never comes before understanding, which reflects patsy's comments.

i have yet to meet anyone who has forgave without understanding why, apart from myself? i hope nothing unforgivable happens to me as i know it would be really painful

brian

xxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hello Brian,

True forgiveness can only come when understanding comes, too. Blind forgiveness is meaningless otherwise.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxxxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

Blind forgiveness is meaningless otherwise.

Very wise words Patsy...

I totally agree with you on that...

Amber

RE: what is forgiveness?

Absolutely Patsy, spot on.

Gxxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

Thank you Gilly and Amber.

My feeling is that complete forgiveness of someone's actions can only be achieved if the person who does the forgiving can understand the reasons behind the actions in the first place. Some people are so nasty that nastiness is second nature to them. In those cases, forgiveness is wasted because these people will never learn. Forgiveness has to be a learning experience as well as a way of letting go of past hurt. This is why I say that true forgiveness must be earned. It isn't something that should be dished out as a matter of course.

If we forgave everybody who wronged us without understanding the reasons why they did what they did, then it would be just another gesture.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

Patsy,

I can see where you're coming from, and if it's possible, nay indeed feasible to understand the reasons behind why the perpetrator carried out such things then this can certainly help with the forgiveness, but it is an unfortunate fact that in many cases we will never know or even understand the motives of such people, and so forgiveness still needs to be forthcoming otherwise we will live with the emotional attachments and let it play a part in our lives that just isn't necessary. Blind forgiveness is by no means meaningless if it can release us from living in pain and let us move on with our lives.

Andy,

It's not so much a matter of the victims (I hate using that word but I can't think of better atm) intelligence as a matter of gaining insight into the workings of the perpetrators mind. Not an easy thing to do.
I do agree that the forgiveness is something we need to do for ourselves, to release the emotions from controlling our lives regardless of whether we understand the reasons or not for what happened.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: what is forgiveness?

Giles,

I am sorry but I disagree.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

I dont think true forgiveness , or love for that matter come with condition. Until we say it does. Its not about those people who did something against us, knowing theyve been a naughty boy, and have to prove anything. Even though I would dearlly like that, but, it wont happen. Sometimes we have no answers.

I quite agree. I think that sometimes we can spend a lifetime trying to work out 'why' when sometimes there ARE no answers. It's not about making people understand why you were so hurt/traumatised and to see the error of their ways (and 'wasting' your forgiveness on them if they don't) it's about accepting that any anger, hatred or bitterness you hold has a negative impact on YOU. Being unable or unwilling to release it only keeps you being a victim of their hurtful actions and behaviour.

That said forgiving is a very hard thing to do. You can say the words and make others beleive it but unless the sentiment is heartfelt the words are meaningless. Forgiveness cannot be forced.

RE: what is forgiveness?

Exactly, Lyssa. Forgiveness cannot be forced.

Love,
Patsy.
[&:]

RE: what is forgiveness?

Patsy,

You are perfectly entitled to disagree. [sm=hug.gif]

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: what is forgiveness?

And I agree, forgiveness cannot be forced.
You have to want to forgive, just as you have to want to heal when you are in need of healing.

Love and Reiki Hugs