what is forgiveness?

RE: what is forgiveness?

To me forgiveness isn't about excusing the person that has wronged or harmed you. By forgiveness you're saying "I no longer wish to carry the pain around of what you did to me" - to me it is about setting myself free, and once you set yourself free, you also set the other person free.

The path to forgiveness isn't easy, it takes a huge amount of courage, love and compassion.

Love and light
Rosi X

RE: what is forgiveness?

Forgiveness is the counterpat to love. It means you have the ability to allow a person
to be responsible for & own their own behaviour
without taking on board any - as it is, in my humble opinion - necessary for many to be bale to forgive.
It is to release knots of the unecessary pain, resentment or any other mental or physical states caused/affected by another, caused by being unable to detach & allow the pain or hurt caused by another to belong to them...as it was
Being unable to forgive that person for being who they are towards others, cant benefit anyone but the person it belongs to.

If we can forgive - we learn much from the experience & subsequent changes, Often life moves very quickly into different realms & freeing not only our life but the lives of other s closely connected. Importantly allowing heart, soul & mind to act within endless realms of unconditional love to all we meet & especially those who teach us, those who we learn such a valuable quality - like forgiveness from.

OOops spilling mestakes 😉

RE: what is forgiveness?

why do you have to "forgive" to move on? I think it is possible to "release" the pain of an act, without having to forgive the person who did the act.

RE: what is forgiveness?

I could post a loooooooong post on how I think forgiveness is overrated, but I am going to borrow another persons words, because I can't say it any better than him/her.... She/He says it exactly as I see it...

I want to talk about the topic of forgiveness. I know it's all the rage (ha, ha, pun not intended) to forgive those that have harmed you or to forgive yourself, or God for everything. However, I believe that forgiveness is just too tall an order for some people, and as such, they begin to feel GUILTY (and perhaps even more intolerant) that they can't forgive! Not the most healthy scenario, eh? So, my feeling is that forgiveness might be slightly overrated, and too difficult to obtain. And quite honestly, I doubt very seriously that folks that "forgive" are really free of the chains that bind them. Sometimes, yes. But really, rarely, I believe. What is not difficult to obtain, is neutrality.
If we cease to be plugged in emotionally or energetically to the object of our ire (whether it is someone else, ourselves, or God) then we are free, and THAT is the object of forgiveness, is it not?

I'd love to hear your opinions. And if you don't agree with me, I forgive you ; - )

------------also-------------

In a nutshell, this is what I think. What do you think of this Dr. Menahem?

a) Love is the key.
b) We create our own reality, so:
c) Taking complete responsibility is of utmost importance.
c) Forgiveness is nice and something to shoot for, but not necessary for peace of mind.
d) It is much easier to step from neutrality (as opposed to negativity) to forgiveness (if our clients/patients resonate to the idea/concept of forgiveness).
e) Understanding is another important key.
f) As long as loving healing happens, it really doesn't matter how the person gets to that place.
g) Giving our clients/patients options is better than dictating how they *should* feel.
h) Peace of mind is the best thing in the whole world (for me: - ).

Cut and pasted from: - [DLMURL] http://website.lineone.net/~dr.mgm/firstlectureans.html [/DLMURL]

RE: what is forgiveness?

wow!!!!!! ty for that amber! Because it totally encapsulates how i felt, and sometimes I did feel as i I was being intolerant or just plain mean.

RE: what is forgiveness?

To forgive you don't have to deny yourself any emotion at all, & if you feel you are then IMHO You are not ready to forgive. To me it's not about saying I excuse you or it was ok to do that to me.. no not at all. rather it is saying (Like Rosie says) i'm not prepared to carry the pain of what you did around with me.
By all means have the emotions you need to have that is very important. To release the pain of the act, as you say is possible with out forgiveness, But to maintain that role of unforgiveness you have to hold onto even just a little to remind yourself of why you can't or don't want to forgive. By doing this by holding onto that tiny piece , You are also keeping yourself in Victim role.. The Oh dear this has happened to me. which means you haven't truely let go of the pain. But for many a lot of inner work needs to be done and you need to accept and allow those emotions that have been denied for so long. For me I never worked towards forgiveness i just found it was happening naturally, once i had done my self healing, once i understood why things happened as they did. I believe we choose our own reality & experiences, So really I had nothing to forgive.. Now I know that last statement is not fopr everyone So I stress that how it was for me. We're all different We all heal in different ways & at differenmt rates. There is no *YOU MUST BOOK*

walk gently in love light & peace Maria xxx

OOOOPs Posted B4 I was finished DERRR!

RE: what is forgiveness?

but our past is a part of who we are. we never really let it go. This doesn't mean to let our past or negative feelings anchor us down, but it is still a part of who we are. And so, yes...there are some things that will always cause me a little pain. I don't think that makes me a victim. If I allowed it to anchor me to the past, if I allowed it to eat me up until all that was left was bitterness and rage (which is different than anger) that would be unhealthy and obviously not a good thing. If the pain hasn't lessened with time, then that--to me--is a sign that you have anchored yourself to the past. But I think that there are some things that always will cause some pain and some anger...and I think that it is normal and can be a good thing. when I think about really good things in my life, they can make me feel happiness again. why wouldn't the reverse be true?

RE: what is forgiveness?

ORIGINAL: Crystarra
why do you have to "forgive" to move on? I think it is possible to "release" the pain of an act, without having to forgive the person who did the act.

It is possible to release the (direct) pain of an act, but if you still don't forgive the person then you still have some emotional problem with them and this problem will still eat away at you over time. This is still an emotional pain, and by truly forgiving you will release this pain too.

IMO, true forgiveness is freeing yourself of all emotions caused by the act and all negative emotions you feel towards the person/people who caused the act, whether they believe they have done wrong or not. This doesn't mean that you won't be able to see that those people did wrong or that they will change who they are, but what they did will not cause you any more discomfort.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hi Crystarra,
Absoloutly our past is what has made and formed us, to the people we are today and our choice is either let go of the pain and bitterness and move on or keep hold of it and stay in that place. Letting go doesn't mean that you don't still remember, I remembrer how it made me feel I just don't feel it any more. It means that you release the pain. The bitterness rage, the guilt what ever the emotions in question are.

Love & Hugs Maria xxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

Forgiveness?

In my view, it depends on if the person who has 'wronged' wants to be forgiven. I have forgiven people in the past and they have thrown it back at me. Forgiveness only works if the one who has wronged is remorseful and if the victim wants to move on from it. Some people will never want to be forgiven because they maintain that they were right to do something to someone else that made that person feel bad. Others claim to have forgiven someone, yet bring up the matter every chance they get.

I think that a person can move on without forgiving and can let it go without damaging his/her life. It becomes a problem if the 'victim' meets with the 'aggressor' in which case a flashpoint erupts. It is then up to those concerned what they do about it.

I have to say that there are two people who were once a part of my life, whom I will never forgive for what they did to me. However, I don't let them get to me, because if I did, I'd be carrying that energy around with me and I don't want it. Neither do either of them deserve my forgiveness.

I am not a victim. It is they who are the victims of their own nastiness.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

I can't free myself of all emotions associated when I stub my toe

I look at it this way...take grief. Grief isnt a bad emotion...most emotions aren't unless they are carried to an extreme. When my grandpa died, I was very grief-stricken. Grief wasn't the only emotion I felt...it was a bit of a relief--that he didn't linger. Worry about my grandma, etc. I could go on, but i'm sure you get the idea. Over time, some of the emotions have lessened, some have strengthened, and yes, some have disappeared. Now, I can tell you honestly that i believe where ever he is, he is happier. When I think about him, I can remember the funny things, etc. But no matter what, I still always feel a bit of sadness because he is not in my life (in the physical sense). It doesn't mean that I am grieving the way i did...or really even at all. But I feel some pain that he won't be around if I were to say...get married. If I ever had kids, he won't be there...and that is sad. And I don't think that there is anything wrong with that. Certain events are always going to call up an emotional response. Just because it's not a "happy" response, doesn't mean that it is "negative." I have great memories of my grandpa, I'm happy that he isn't in pain. I'm happy that he is where ever he is and I'm sure he is happy. I don't feel the sadness with the intensity I did initially and maybe it will fade even more. But that doesn't mean that i'll never feel pain or sadness when i think of him. It isn't eating me up. I don't feel it is taking away from the good things.

So why can't that be true in other areas of life? I don't think it is realistic to expect people not to feel emotions when something major happens. It SHOULD lessen over time or with whatever method is used to "deal" with it.

RE: what is forgiveness?

wow
two responses while I was posting

*needs to type faster*

RE: what is forgiveness?

ORIGINAL: Crystal Moonchild

Absoloutly our past is what has made and formed us, to the people we are today and our choice is either let go of the pain and bitterness and move on or keep hold of it and stay in that place.

Love & Hugs Maria xxx

bitterness=not healthy...that i agree with. it's often a "normal" reaction for a little while, but it will eat you up if you don't let that go.

RE: what is forgiveness?

ORIGINAL: songstress
I have to say that there are two people who were once a part of my life, whom I will never forgive for what they did to me. However, I don't let them get to me, because if I did, I'd be carrying that energy around with me and I don't want it. Neither do either of them deserve my forgiveness.

I am not a victim. It is they who are the victims of their own nastiness.

Heya Pasty,
No offence intended as I can't imagine what these people have done (sending you some *hugs*)
However the fact that you say that they don't deserve forgiveness means that you are holding a negative energy relating to them. You don't have to believe that what they did is ok, but holding negative energy like this will only hurt yourself.
[sm=hug.gif]

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: what is forgiveness?

ORIGINAL: Crystarra
I can't free myself of all emotions associated when I stub my toe
I look at it this way...take grief. Grief isnt a bad emotion...most emotions aren't unless they are carried to an extreme.

An emotion is only a bad emotion if it causes you a problem in any way. For some Grief is believed to be a good thing and they welcome it, for others it is a problem that they have trouble getting rid of. Everyone is individual.

Certain events are always going to call up an emotional response. Just because it's not a "happy" response, doesn't mean that it is "negative." I have great memories of my grandpa, I'm happy that he isn't in pain. I'm happy that he is where ever he is and I'm sure he is happy. I don't feel the sadness with the intensity I did initially and maybe it will fade even more. But that doesn't mean that i'll never feel pain or sadness when i think of him. It isn't eating me up. I don't feel it is taking away from the good things.

If you are happy to have that feeling then that is your choice. It is possible to 'remove' these feelings, but that would have to be an idividuals choice.

So why can't that be true in other areas of life? I don't think it is realistic to expect people not to feel emotions when something major happens. It SHOULD lessen over time or with whatever method is used to "deal" with it.

People will feel emotions when events happen, but it's not necessary for them to have to live with those feelings if they are causing them problems and effecting their way of life. If a person wants to be free to move on then they entitled to be free of such feelings.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: what is forgiveness?

For me to forgive is a place that sits in there is nothing to forgive

And for me it’s a mind switch
There is nothing to forgive ever forgiveness dose not exist for me
And how it works if I can put it in to words
To forgive you have to have got hurt
And to get hurt is a perception of how some on should be and not meeting you expectation
So you created the way they should be to you and made them wrong for doing so
But for me I people do things I don’t agree with and they have the right and its up to me how I interpret what they do to me and whether I let them do it or whether I whant them in my life
But I know it I make them wrong it dose not serve me and get caught up in the gilt or forgiveness thing
I try and tell them how it made me feel but as I tell them I come from the space that they did not do any thing wrong
But at the end of the day if some one murder my daughter that would be a test of

That’s how it is for me

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hello Giles,

Thank you for the hugs! [sm=hug.gif]

Well, I certainly look upon those two in a negative light, but I wouldn't say that I was carrying the negativity around with me. As far as I am concerned, they are neither-here-nor-there, I don't think about them very much.

It is strange, forgiveness. I have forgiven my violent husband for what he did to me, but I can't forgive these two's actions. I think that because my husband was acting under the influence of drugs (mostly) amelliorates him somewhat, but these others were not. They were 'compus mentis.' They are a pair of nasty bits of work, and I want nothing more to do with them.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

[sm=grouphug.gif] Hi all!

Forgiveness for me isn't always about telling the person they are forgiven. It's sometimes about not putting on the same overalls everyday and hurting myself over and over with the same offence! (like what some of you guys have already said!) it's about saying 'you are forgiven' in my head and heart and then letting it go from me. I've had some really horrible ppl in life and some family members that I have had to come to terms with and forgiving them in person would have gone over their heads. I no longer have relationships with these members but to get over the trauma of their acts and words I have had to forgive them in my heart because I was the one holding up my life going forward whilst they got on with theirs like nothing happened. I am now free of their pains and have moved forward enormously....although it took a number of years to get to that place I just couldn't imagine going on any longer and horrified to know that if I hadn't forgiven I would still be at that point today!! They are still unaware of my actions. I am able to[sm=sleep.gif] at night knowing I can wake up and put whatever clothing on I wish to!! 😀

RE: what is forgiveness?

Andi, you put it so well. 😉

ORIGINAL: songstress
Well, I certainly look upon those two in a negative light, but I wouldn't say that I was carrying the negativity around with me. As far as I am concerned, they are neither-here-nor-there, I don't think about them very much.

(more) Hugs Patsy,
It would be interesting to muscle test you on that. 😮

RE: what is forgiveness?

Just remeber you can forgive someone for what they did to you but forgiveness doesn't mean you have to end up liking them.

If you don't forgive someone, then in my opinion that hurt will still be carried in your soul.

L&L

MC

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hi Crysarra,
I to was both happy & sad when my mother passed on, I allowed myself & even the guilt of really wanting her to pass over because she was suffering so very much.. But I have let them both go now.. those emotions were for that particular event.. No doubt i will feel them again in new circumstamnces.. but in the example above i have let them go I haven't forgotten about my mum & talk to her regulary , I remember the good & the bad times.. but the only time it still hurts is when I allow it to. when I haven't worked through it & let it go.
No one well not me, is saying don't feel your emotions, I'm saying accept them for what they are at the time . You can still remember events in life but they will no longer hurt, you never forget the actions or that it happened but the pain , the hurt the bitterness etc will fade so making the whole thing more bareable. I never actively thought OH I forgive you it was a very gradual process starting with my own self healing.

Hi Giles
yes I can see where yiou're coming from!

Hi Andi
Lovely post very well said

love & hugs Maria xxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hi Crystarra,

What a great (and important) topic! I hope it's helping you to understand the need for forgiveness more. I agree with every word Rosi (and others who have expressed the same view) have said, but I hope I can add a few more ideas for you to ponder.

OK, so what is forgiveness to me? Well, to forgive in the Greek, means “to let go“. to let go of the hurt, anger, pain and resentment I am feeling. What is resentment? To me, it’s simply re-sending the evil. Where is the benefit in that? Look at the history of Ireland or the Middle East for proof that lack of forgiveness and holding on to past hurts and injustices does not work.

The main benefit of forgiveness is for ourselves - the other person doesn’t even have to know you have forgiven them.

Many people have difficulty with this concept of forgiveness because they wrongly assume it lets the guilty part off the hook. Not at all - the very opposite in fact. Everyone who has done wrong will (either here or hereafter) have to one day face up to the wrongs and hurts they have caused others and this will help them to re-form - become the spiritual, pure, innocent and good person that they were created as, and who they really are, right now. Have you ever met a little baby who is cruel, aggressive, manipulative, dishonest, abusive, hateful?

When we mentally hold someone else in a particular condition, we are locking him or her into that condition. It’s when we can separate the evil from the person that we then free ourselves from the debilitating (and often illness-causing) pain and free the “villain” to become the person we would like him or her to be. In helping the other person restore their sense of who they really are, you are recognising their inherent spiritual worth and at the same time, recognising your own.

Have you ever noticed that in the middle of the word forgive is the word GIVE?

OK - so you have a right to your resentment, but you choose to give it up, to give it away. The other party doesn’t have a right to your goodness, mercy, compassion, spiritual and moral courage, but you choose to give it to them anyway. I have read so many testimonies of healing from people who have suffered with a long-standing physical problem or disease and when they have asked God/Spirit to help them let go of the resentment and have allowed forgiveness to come into the heart, they have then had the physical healing as well as the emotional. Just about every healing that is delayed is because the person is hanging on to self-justification and resentment. RE-SENT-MENT Sending back the evil.

A couple of years ago, the theme of the Harvard Medical School’s two-day “Spirituality & Healing in Medicine” conference focussed on the importance of forgiving. This article from is from that:

Forgiveness holds hands with spiritual healing

It begins: “Walking through the woods with his little grandson, a Native American grandfather said, “There are two wolves fighting in my heart. One is filled with anger, bitterness and resentment; the other is filled with love, trust and compassion.” His grandson asked, “Which will win?” “The one I feed,” he answered.”

And if we WANT to forgive but just can’t seem to be able to, I’ve found this article very helpful:

How do I begin to forgive

“Maybe people have done things to you that you feel are unforgivable. And maybe you've been told to "forgive and forget," or that "it's never good to hold a grudge." Well, those approaches may be fine . . . in theory. But how do you even begin to forgive someone's thoughtless, destructive, vicious, or even abusive behavior? Should people who do such things be forgiven? Do you really have to forgive them? And if you do forgive, does that legitimize similar acts in the future?”

Love and peace,

Judy

RE: what is forgiveness?

There is of course a certain healing quality in retribution, even if you have ‘forgiven’ (as it is being put in some of the above posts) but I see some of those descriptions as more akin to ‘letting go’ in that you ensure that it no longer hurts ‘you’.
What I’m talking about here is “dealing with the cause” as opposed to the symptom.

Consider bullies….
For ‘the good of all’ – if you have the ability to teach a bully a lesson that they understand (as lets face it – to a bully ‘being forgiven’ is indistinguishable from ‘getting away with it’ – so makes no difference to them) – unload on ‘em and let ‘em know what it’s for; if you are indifferent to it any way (because you’ve managed to ‘let go’ – you’re free) but you still have a responsibility for ‘the good of all’ especially those that are in a much weaker position to you – so teach that lesson – for the sake of those that this individual will hurt in the future if not taught different now by you.

Moreover, if Ian Huntley did that to my little girl – You can bet your sweet *** I (and I’ll wager some of you guys too) will not be thinking about how best to forgive him.

Anger, revenge, fear etc are natural and human.

All I consider is how best I can ensure that an action or event does not stay with me (i.e. how best can I let it go) and secondly what is the best course of action needed ‘for the good of all’!

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but there it is. 🙂

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hi Giles,

I can honestly say that am not carrying any negativity about those two around with me! I am being honest. Not everyone who has had a bad experience needs to offload it to feel like they've moved on. [sm=hug.gif] I haven't spoken to them for years.

I think also that forgiveness needs to be earned.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxx
P.S. What does 'muscle test' mean?

RE: what is forgiveness?

Muscle Testing is a means of determining what the subconscious mind believes rather than what the conscious mind is telling us.

Here's a quick link I've dug out for you... [link= http://www.worldtrans.org/TP/TP2/TP2A-67.HTML ]Muscle Testing[/link]

Hugs

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hi Sponge Bob
I can assurew Revenge & retribution has never ever been a part of my life. Yes things annoy me hurt me & make me angry .. but revenge no sorry not me[:'(].

Love & hugs Maria xxxxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

I can't help but think that there is a problem with charecterizing emotional responses as inherently "positive" or "negative"

anger is not always negative. Neither is hurt. both are emotional responses. Any emotion, no matter how "positive" seeming it is can be excessive and unhealthy...or we can respond to them in unhealthy ways and vice versa.

Personaly, I'd be lying to say that I don't have emotional responses to events that happened in the past. I still remember when I first held my nephew and how I felt. And more than that, I still smile when I think about it. so obviously, i'm still feeling emotional. It's not as strong, the emotions have shifted somewhat, but it is still very real.

when I think about how my grandpa--and this is usually over the holidays--won't be around it does make me sad...but I don't see that as being negative. That sadness doesn't overwhelm me, it doesn't blind me to other emotions. It doesn't hold me back and I don't believe it holds him back. I don't see how that is negative. It's how I react to that feeling that makes my actions healthy or unhealthy or negative or positive...altho I feel like that is over simplifying just a tad by dividing it into an either or category.

In all honesty, I don't think it is possible to divorce ourselves from our emotions. I don't usually think that most emotions are inherently good or bad.
They are a part of who we are and serve a very real purpose. They are going to change and shift and transform, but will never completely disappear. Isn't that a rule? energy can change, but never disappear?

I'm with songstress...forgiveness needs to be earned. It's a gift--you are giving of yourself. And Judy, I found your post very interesting, but I disagree slightly. I don't think that my actions, inactions, or emotions lock someone into being who they are. They have made choices and continue to make choices. With my forgiveness or not, they can change their lives or they can continue as they are doing because in all honesty, they won't know if I forgive them or not as they are not a part of my life.

and vortex, I may be misunderstanding your post, but I disagree that people have the right to do what they want. There is a lot of "natural" pain in life, without people going around and deliberately or callously and carelessly adding to it. There are certain things that NO one has the right to do. And I think i have a right to that expectation. Again, these are extreme situations I'm talking about.

btw, i'm talking about--for me at least--extreme situations. there is very little that I don't forgive.

and again, agreeing with songstress...there are some people who did hurt me, but who is now so far removed from my life that forgiveness is really irrelevant. By removed, I don't mean physically--I mean emotionally. I've dealt, healed and moved on. I didn't need to forgive them, I just needed to be able to truly put it behind me.

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hi Maria,

ORIGINAL: Crystal Moonchild
Hi Sponge Bob
I can assurew Revenge & retribution has never ever been a part of my life. Yes things annoy me hurt me & make me angry .. but revenge no sorry not me[:'(].
Love & hugs Maria xxxxx

I never proposed revenge as acceptable, however, I do suggest that retribution is sometimes a responsibility that should not be walked away from just because you (not you personally) are able to disassociate yourself from the ‘suffering’ caused.
Otherwise what is the meaning of Justice (notice I don’t say law)!

Revenge smacks of ego, as equally as annoy, hurt and anger smack of ‘self’ – again all natural emotions as far as I’m concerned, however, probably much like yourself I disassociate myself from these emotions as often as I can if they occur, detachment and ‘the empty way’ are always my goal.
If I have something and I enjoy it – then I enjoy it while I have it but I don’t pine for it or mourn it’s loss if someone takes it away from me – I’m not easily led to anger or hatred. I can let these things go – because ultimately I’m not attached to them.

However, if the cause of my loss (lets call it that) – is someone or something that makes a habit of doing it to others too; then I am faced with my responsibility to help curtail that activity on behalf of my fellow ‘humans’ who may be weaker, less able to take the loss or even perhaps have their own (and their families) lives utterly ruined just because I was aware – but had managed to ‘handle’ the event without harm to me and decided to just ‘let it go’ & get on with my life – in this kinda situation, shouldering the responsibility is (I can assure you) not the easier option.

When faced with that kind of situation, you may find it strange but I become quite emotionless 😮

I have learned, as Crystarra so aptly puts it

ORIGINAL: Crystarra
there is a problem with charecterizing emotional responses as inherently "positive" or "negative"

Rgds,
Roger

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hi Crystarra

may be I should explain it better
Every one dose what they want and make judgments according to cores and affect
This is the planet of chose and you have total freedom here
But its up to me how I judge there actions and in that if I make no judgment
There is nothing to forgive
or if you have to forgive you have made some one or some thing wrong
its simple there is no right or wrong