Dear all,
Anyone would think from the pompous title that I knew what I was talking about. Far from it: but I have some idea of what I'd like others to tell me!
This thread springs from "Who created God?" and from ideas therein.
The whole idea of 'first this, then that' seems to me a bit of an earth-plane construct created to accommodate the limitations of incarnate humanity.
However, there seems to be some kind of progression or evolution happening in and around our universe, and we need some means of looking at it.
One that popped into my head was the idea of spherical time, in which our present awareness occupies only a tiny speck. So for example...
We see a change in the bit we occupy, quite unaware that in another time and/or place and/or dimension another change is occurring ("simultaneously", to borrow the concept I'm trying to escape) which is either causal of or consequential of the one we witness. So if in his own time da Vinci decides to give a red nose to the Mona Lisa, then in our experience (from that point in the sphere outwards, at any time-point since) she has never been without one. Our whole experience of incarnate life thus would evolve en bloc, (perhaps more on the energetic that physical planes), to become a harmonious and purposeful journey as a whole, the 'later' bits giving form and sense to the whole.
This is all looking rather rickety, but I hope it can stimulate people into expounding something more coherent.
As far as space is concerned, people talk freely about different dimensions but as often as not I try to look as though I 'get' them when I really don't. For me, different 'bands' or 'wavelengths' of energy are experienced quite independently of their neighbours. Put crudely, you could say that the people living in red light and listening to Radio 4 are completely oblivious to the people living in blue light and listening to Radio 3. As the energies become finer, the rules governing space and time dissolve or change, what was solid matter is no obstacle and all kinds of life and energy become visible which weren't at all. Many people believe that etheric (non-physical) and astral (semi-physical) life exists on Venus, in quite an organised and evolved civilisation, and that it is our matter-bound nature that prevents us from seeing it.
But am I confusing planes with dimensions? I'd like to hear what the experts have to say.
Enough blathering - time for my tea:)
love and light
BV
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RE: The nature of time and the spatial dimensions
ORIGINAL: bigvoice
Anyone would think from the pompous title that I knew what I was talking about. Far from it
What a disappointment, Patrick! From the title I was expecting a deeply instructive thesis... ah well.
I do understand you with the idea of a kind of gestalt nature of time. I was instinctively going to write that my gut-reaction (instinct) tells me, No, and that time is linear - that one thing does lead to another, that one event precedes another. Otherwise how could there be free will, for all would be 'done' in a sense. However, who knows how the universe, and time, appears from the perspective of (if we accept the concept of a Divine Being - I do) God / the One? Time will presumably be the Creation of God, as all is, otherwise we would be talking about a lesser 'god' subject to higher laws than himself.
It may be that we just cannot know. In the 'Who created God' thread I've quoted Ramakrishna as saying that there's always a level higher than yourself (that there are heights no bird can fly to), so perhaps such things must remain a mystery. Or - perhaps one can know of such things in mystical experiences, which are so often described as 'timeless' - though they still do take place in linear time, a paradox.
As far as space is concerned, people talk freely about different dimensions but as often as not I try to look as though I 'get' them when I really don't. For me, different 'bands' or 'wavelengths' of energy are experienced quite independently of their neighbours. Put crudely, you could say that the people living in red light and listening to Radio 4 are completely oblivious to the people living in blue light and listening to Radio 3. As the energies become finer, the rules governing space and time dissolve or change, what was solid matter is no obstacle and all kinds of life and energy become visible which weren't at all. Many people believe that etheric (non-physical) and astral (semi-physical) life exists on Venus,
There's a thread somewhere where I gave my own view on the semantics of this word, 'dimension'. There are so many benevolent misunderstandings on HP due to people using the word with different meanings. It seems to me that 'dimensions' is used (having also New Age ways of the tongue in mind here) in three ways:
1. As science uses the word. Three dimensions of space, the fourth of time, and according to superstring theory there may be a number of smaller or 'different' dimensions.
2. Rhetorically, as in: "Hearing that symphony took my mind into a whole new dimension."
3. The planes of existence as spoken of in the occult or esoteric circles. As you say, the etheric, astral, mental, whatever, which as far as I know began to be clearly delineated and spoken of with precision first in Theosophy. My proposal for clear communication between people from many different backgrounds is that we continue with the scientific use of 'dimensions' as in space/time. It isn't clear that the 'higher planes of existence' need to be called other dimensions: we can simply call them higher planes.
Apologies to all for getting complex, but there's a caveat here and I might as well write my thoughts out fully: I have a sneaky suspicion that the existence of these higher planes such as the astral and still higher levels is contingent upon the other 'dimensions' superstring theory talks about. In other words, that one 'moves into' these more subtle realms by attuning to the other dimensions of superstring theory; that they are one and the same. The planes would, in that case, be other 'dimensions' after all!
Venetian
RE: The nature of time and the spatial dimensions
Dear David,
Thank you for your thoughts. I was prodded by the following:
my gut-reaction (instinct) tells me, No, and that time is linear - that one thing does lead to another, that one event precedes another. Otherwise how could there be free will, for all would be 'done' in a sense.
I'm not sure that an "all at once" view of time would affect free will, would it? At least not in the details of events. All would not be 'done', but rather, all causes and outcomes would change together from the beginning to the end of the span of time. (...beginning, end - we are truly bound by these ideas!)
Perhaps imagine that all within the sphere is bound by the laws of time and space, while everything around it is not, but has other laws instead - laws which will evolve further as one moves up through the strata, vibrationally speaking.
That the whole of creation will eventually come to good, and that a good outcome doesn't ultimately or solely depend on the thoughts and actions of the incarnate, is an idea from which many of us choose to draw comfort. So while I believe in the 'cause and effect' side of free will, I also believe that as parts of the Divine we create many new and beautiful patterns in the tapestry of the Divine plan with our choices and actions - but that ultimately, it will be a very fine tapestry nonetheless.
Enuff, as Molesworth would say.
love
BV
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RE: The nature of time and the spatial dimensions
On the subject of Dimensions, if you will excuse the slight detour here, I thought, about 2 years back it was published that scientists had 'discovered' at least another 7 dimensions, making 11 in total (including time) that we now know of.
I cannot find a link though.
Leo would know about this but he is not back on line as yet.,
Love Gillyxxx
RE: The nature of time and the spatial dimensions
To reply to Gilly, my point 1 above is about that. Superstring theory posits several other dimensions, but they are not dimensions as we usually think of them - they are all at the micro level.
To reply to bigvoice, goodness, the whole issue of free will has been debated for centuries and is complex. I know where I stand, that we do have free will, but that is another thread.
V
RE: The nature of time and the spatial dimensions
ORIGINAL: gillyann
On the subject of Dimensions, if you will excuse the slight detour here, I thought, about 2 years back it was published that scientists had 'discovered' at least another 7 dimensions, making 11 in total (including time) that we now know of.
I cannot find a link though
This been discussed on HP a few times...I follow the theory that there are a further six compacted "dimensions". Here's one link:
Dr Kaku is just one expert on String Theory.
astra x
RE: The nature of time and the spatial dimensions
Hi Bigvoice....interesting topic.
Hope to respond to your thoughts on time and space sometime soon.
x
RE: The nature of time and the spatial dimensions
Hello David,
Yes, superstring theory would account for the extra dimensions, but they are as you say, at the micro level.
Science is just tapping at the door of proving that these dimensions exist. Of couse, we mediums have known about them all along! 😀
Love,
Patsy.
:D:D
RE: The nature of time and the spatial dimensions
Would some kind soul give me a quick run-down on superstring theory?:eek: I've done an HP search and there don't appear to be any other threads mentioning it...
Thank you so much in advance
Patrick
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RE: The nature of time and the spatial dimensions
Here you go, Patrick. 🙂 I've had the odd problem using Search as a short cut to something I know jolly well exists, and it doesn't turn it up. Did you use a small "s"? - it may be case sensitive??? This gives the list - I hope!
Love,
Laura.
RE: The nature of time and the spatial dimensions
Thank you Laura, that's great. I can't think why my search didn't work, but there's plenty for me to read there.
Much love
Patrick[sm=cat.gif]
RE: The nature of time and the spatial dimensions
Hi everyone,
Thought-provoking thread! I’ve been meaning to say to you Patrick, how good it is to see you back on HP again.
My own knowledge on this subject is very limited, compared to some of you here, but an idea that hit me was that, spiritually understood, the 1st book of Genesis could be seen as describing the 7 dimensions.
The way I understand it is that a different dimension is a different level of consciousness. I have been on a different level a couple of times (each following a physical healing)> I can only describe it like the moment when you see the real picture on a page of Magic Eye. On the surface is the puzzling pattern, but focus beyond the pattern (the mortal) and the true image appears, in glorious 2-D. But it's all the same piece of paper, just viewed differently. To me, there is no connection between them - one supercedes the other. (Does that make sense?)
This might be veering of the subject, but thought you'd be interested. Two friends have described to me how time "stood still" for them, as a result of raising their consciousness of reality. They both understood to a degree these following statements of Mary Baker Eddy:
TIME. Mortal measurements; limits, in which are summed up all human acts, thoughts, beliefs, opinions, knowledge; matter; error; that which begins before, and continues after, what is termed death, until the mortal disappears and spiritual perfection appears. (Science and Health p. 595)
Time is a mortal thought, the divisor of which is the solar year. (Science and Health p. 598)
Eternity, not time, expresses the thought of Life, and time is no part of eternity. One ceases in proportion as the other is recognized. Time is finite; eternity is forever infinite. (Science and Health p. 468)
One moment of divine consciousness, or the spiritual understanding of Life and Love, is a foretaste of eternity. (Science and Health p. 598)
One was a friend who had escaped from a dangerous situation in Iraq in the 50’s. The man who had helped her escape (disguised as a Bedouin on a camel, with her young son) was a cousin of the family she had married into, and he somehow managed to contact her while visiting England and asked her to meet him at Heathrow.
A well-meaning friend tried to stop her from going, thinking it was a trap – this woman even held onto her ankles but she managed eventually to get away. She was in central London and his flight departed in 10 minutes. Well, she just knew that if it was right, she would be there and she was. As a result of this meeting, her ex-husband (who had tried to kill her on the family’s orders) agreed to pay for the son’s private education and eventually they resumed normal contact with the boy.
The other experience was similar. This friend was due to deliver a lecture on the other side of Manhattan from where he was staying. There was a blackout and he had to walk down 24 flights of stairs in his hotel. When he got down, all the traffic lights etc had gone down and there was chaos (or more chaos than normal) on the roads. He had just 16 minutes to travel the entire width of Manhattan – something not humanly possible, but he was there on time.
The two experiences above show me that it is possible to overcome the limitations of time, here and now. After all, Jesus was "immediately" on the other side of the Sea of Galilee. I believe that he came to show us just what is possible.
I also thought I’d share some Laurance Doyle ideas, as they seem relevant to this thread. Dr Doyle is a planetary astronomer at the SETI Institute.
Doyle is asked whether there is a link between the eternal realm (infinity is obviously in the eternal realm) and what appears as a human state of material things and he replies:
Quote: "I don’t – for the same reason I don’t think there’s a link between chalk and math, per se. If 2+2=4 is written on a chalkboard, the math isn’t in the chalk; the chalk is a finite way of looking at the truth………"
"You don’t find time turning int