So who/what created God???

RE: So who/what created God???

Hello again Venetian,

I’ve just re-read your experience on the cliff – I so connect with that. And you say there that you understood that matter is illusion. So if matter is illusion (which is what I believe) how can it be something as well?

What you are describing as being your truth, to me is pantheism – and to me, that is dualism. That’s saying that there is God, Spirit. Spirit is infinite, All BUT there is also matter, therefore, Spirit is not all.

Now, I think this misunderstanding is all about what matter actually is. If you ask any quantum physicist, he has a totally different view from that of Joe Bloggs who has never questioned the information coming from his material senses. We can only know matter through our material senses. We can only know Spirit through our spiritual senses.

Our material senses fool us all the time. They tell us that the sun rises in he east and sets in the west, for instance. They tell us that the earth is still. But we have to go to the higher evidence of intelligence and then we won’t get fooled. In many ways, the sense of body we hold in our night dreams, when we can fly and accomplish anything is much nearer to reality that what we experience in this waking dream.

Eddy’s definition of man (the true, spiritual identity of each of us, rather than mortal man) has brought healing to countless individuals when it has been understood.

Question.-- What is man?
Answer.-- Man is not matter; he is not made up of brain, blood, bones, and other material elements. The Scriptures inform us that man is made in the image and likeness of God. Matter is not that likeness. The likeness of Spirit cannot be so unlike Spirit. Man is spiritual and perfect; and because he is spiritual and perfect, he must be so understood in Christian Science. Man is idea, the image, of Love; he is not physique. He is the compound idea of God, including all right ideas; the generic term for all that reflects God's image and likeness; the conscious identity of being as found in Science, in which man is the reflection of God, or Mind, and therefore is eternal; that which has no separate mind from God; that which has not a single quality underived from Deity; that which possesses no life, intelligence, nor creative power of his own, but reflects spiritually all that belongs to his Maker.
(Science and Health p 475)

From first to last the supposed coexistence of Mind and matter and the mingling of good and evil have resulted from the philosophy of the serpent. Jesus' demonstrations sift the chaff from the wheat, and unfold the unity and the reality of good, the unreality, the nothingness, of evil.

Human philosophy has made God manlike. Christian Science makes man Godlike. The first is error; the latter is truth. Metaphysics is above physics, and matter does not enter into metaphysical premises or conclusions. The categories of metaphysics rest on one basis, the divine Mind. Metaphysics resolves things into thoughts, and exchanges the objects of sense for the ideas of Soul.

These ideas are perfectly real and tangible to spiritual consciousness, and they have this advantage over the objects and thoughts of material sense,--they are good and eternal. (Science and Health p 269)

I just want to discuss these spiritual concepts of idea:

"Man is idea, the image, of Love; he is not physique. He is the compound idea of God, including all right ideas;.."

"Metaphysics resolves things into thoughts, and exchanges the objects of sense for the ideas of Soul."

I was once driving down the Egham bypass, listening to a cassette of hymns and the cover was lying on the seat beside me. I glanced down and saw the title "The image of Love" and the understanding of what that meant came so vividly, that when I got home, I found that my husband had been healed instantaneously. He had had a viral infection for two weeks that had been causing him enormous pain. He had been given stronger and stronger

RE: So who/what created God???

Hi Judy,

Let me take this in manageable bites :D, so your last-but-one post first. There's not much difference in our thinking, and in fact it is so very similar between us. But of course, in spiritual discussion, as with all the thousands of Christian churches which are separate sometimes on one tiny item of doctrine, it can be that little things become important, and maybe are.

I agree with your post, with two riders.

ORIGINAL: Principled

I disagree:

The physical healing of Christian Science results now, as in Jesus' time, from the operation of divine Principle <snip....>

In that part of your post, I don't see why you disagree. Your quotes and words are consistent with the philosophy that we all have a Higher Self, or are all an aspect of God, and that we are doing the healing ourselves. I don't mean the limited mortal person 'down here' is doing it - I mean there's a part of ourselves which is above what we can see and feel, and usually beyond what the lower self even contacts in consciousness. But it is still us - the Self, or Atman in Hinduism. That's the REAL You, and it's doing the healing, not a being apart from yourself.

Maybe in that way of putting it, we agree. If not, what the heck! 🙂

The second thing I'd disagree on, but again 'what the heck' and we can agree to disagree as the universe doesn't hang upon our thoughts, is:

Well Venetian, no-one had been able to heal the way she did since the days of Jesus' disciples.

Wrong, Judy, sorry, in my books. I think it's always dodgy to hang your beliefs and faith upon one particular figure as kind of being 'the' one. There have been many like her. Off the top of my head I can think of Hilarion in the early centuries, who was such a healer - but didn't want to be as he wanted to be just a mystic with God - that he kept trying to find islands to hide out on, just a few generations after Jesus; but the multitudes kept finding him. If you read the one book-length biography of St. Francis of Paolo, he could do, seemingly, anything! The account we have of his life tells of far more miracles, and sometimes even more astounding, than those attributed to Jesus in the gospels. Miracles dripped from his fingers it seems, and a friend and I found it actually funny to read, as being in his presence must have been quite an experience!

IMO the Mahatmas of Theosophy were capable of doing any healing they chose to do, but their lives are largely hidden and unrecorded whereas MBE was public and in the West. A somewhat comparable figure to her would be Aimee Semple McPherson who I'd guess was around at the same time (?) or a bit later.

In any case, healing isn't what it's all about, and not the most important result or demonstration of spirituality anyway, as has beeen said before on HP.

With those two riders - I disagree that MBE was unique, and on whether "we" heal or "God" heals (I think we are just stuck on semantics there and the meaning of "we") I agree.

Venetian

RE: So who/what created God???

Hi Judy,

I'd say your second post in essence is that there's -

Divine Consciousness

Human being

Mortal being

And you also gave the good examples of God or God's idea of hand -- then hand -- then growth. Also the one of GOLD -- £10 note -- £10 counterfeit. (I think all paper money is counterfiet and that national banks are legitimised counterfeiters, but I'll swallow my very high ability to throw threads of track and stop at that so as not to confuse the real subject!)

I agree except there's one of those optical illusions at work here IMO. First, I do agree that the Divine did not as such create the mortal or lesser self with imperfections, the counterfeit, or the growth on the hand. But it fits in with the divine scheme though they never had to happen. They are the result of the Divine giving man/woman free will. It's all to do with free will, and by exercising free will, and making mistakes, in the end we learn and grow. (That really only makes sense if you accept karma and reincarnation, since clearly many people do not learn and grow in one life, the one we see them in now.)

The real optical illusion is in the real nature of a man and a woman. They are not a creation of God, though the Bible may metaphorically refer to it that way. "This is my body which is broken for you" refers to the fact that the Divine can remain One, but at the same time individualise Itself millions and millions of times over. We are all drops from the Ocean that is God. The drop may appear smaller than the Ocean, but, crucially - (1) It has ALL the qualities and attributes of any other part of the Ocean: that's why a fully-realised person such as Jesus could in effect appear to be God on Earth, because he had learned and realised how to manifest his full potential which is a potential we all have; (2) While we may be 'drops' in the Ocean of God, we are not drops that are separated out. Or, the paradox is that we are separate and individualised aspects of God, but at one and the same time we are still part of the Ocean. That's what mystics and people with mystical experiences talk about - that they suddenly saw beyond the illusion and experienced as certain knowledge and Be-ness that they were One with All, that nothing is separate, that all is God, and that they were a part of that all and that they were also God - no separation, no duality.

------------------------------------
On an entirely different note, the thread is "So who/what created God???"

I don't recall, without looking back up, if the Hindu perspective has come in? There's no such thing as one agreed 'Hinduism'. It is in fact a whole wealth of different philosophies, but there is a rough consensus. What in the West we might call God, is something more-or-less comparable to Hinduism's ParaAtman, or Brahma also. In Hinduism God, conceived of this way, as an active Consciousness or Great Spirit, does also have a Creator!!! God comes forth from Brahman. Brahman is too difficult to explain here and it's late, but anyone interested could do a google search. This is agreed upon by Theosophy, and also more recent movements of that kind.

I admit though that this gives a kind of answer to the thread, but only takes us to the next question: "Where did Brahman come from?"

Nobody seriously expects me or anyoneto answer that, do they? :D(But I'll keep a look-out and see if any Hindu philosophies offer possible answers.)

Venetian

RE: So who/what created God???

Hello again Venetian,

As you say, we're very close - I think it's the difficulty in trying to use human language to describe spiritual concepts and the way that different faiths use different words.

Sunanda once wrote that God was all, that the bottle of gin was God - that's the concept I can't swallow. Does that mean that the heroin is God, the nicotene is God etc? The atomic bomb is God? The napalm is God? All killing weapons are God? If you say that matter is God, then all harmful substances and objects are included. To me, these are man-made manufactured substances or objects and man's thought is not always God-like! God doesn't create harmful substances - the divine Mind creates ideas that express Its own goodness and harmony.

People have had healings of the effects of all these harmful substances - like someone at Christmas Island (was that the place where the atomic tests took place?) who had skin cancer and leukemia - also a lady who lived at Chernoble (sp?) all healed through CS. A young man drank what he thought was a bottle of soda pop in the fridge at a party and it was some drug - LSD? He managed to phone a CS practitioner and within minutes all the violent symptoms and the hallucinations stopped. If these were part of God, then they couldn't be destroyed through prayer.

As for MBE - I was simply responding to your "If MBE said things along these lines, IMHO she was getting it a bit wrong." I take what she says seriously, not because of her human personality, but simply because it's not abstract theory with her - she proved what she wrote.

What I was referring to was how Christanity lost its healing power after the Constantine in the AD300's. The early Christians were raising the dead as well as healing the sick, until it was all watered down by ritualism and tradition - the words of Jesus taken, rather than the works as well. I have always said (though I didn't yesterday) that there have always been individuals throughout history who have walked in the light and have healed - the Venerable Bede comes to mind, Julian of Norwich. But as far as the Christian church goes, there was very little healing and probably none as part of daily worship until after Science and Health was published in 1875.

I have always said on HP that MBE did not have the monoploy on the spiritual laws of healing anymore than Newton had the monoploy on the laws of mathematics. However, I doubt whether you will find any book before Science and Health with such a complete explanation - but then Venetian, you haven't read it, so you don't know what you're missing!

Love and peace,

Judy

RE: So who/what created God???

On who/what created God, I do think the best answer lies within the Hindu / Theosophical perspective as it at least takes things one stage further back, explaining (if one wishes to accept it) the different levels and aspects of God, Brahman being the highest of all and not being comparable to any Being that actively gets involved in Creation or the activities of the world. Brahman is above and beyond all that, but puts forth aspects of the Godhead which do become more like the Western image of the Divine. But again, taken as a whole we might say Brahman is 'God' too, so the question of the thread is really, where did the original Originator come from?

To Judy,

Yes we see eye-to-eye on much. As for whether God is present in napalm, nicotene, the atomic bomb and heroin, this would require a small booklet at least to explain fully but I can give notes, though they are only, I think, a repetition of what's already said.

There's no matter/energy that isn't God's 'body' or substance sent forth into these lower realms in the form of atoms and the smaller particles which make up atoms. Every neutron, electron, and proton is a tiny part of God willing to do what the Great Mind then tells it to form into. Then, God has also (without ceasing to be One) also individualised Him/Herself as incarnate people. Look into a person's eyes and you will see the imprisoned splendour. Imprisoned only because we are aspects of God going through the growth-trial called "free will". So we are given the ability, as drops in the Ocean, to actually for a while go against the Will of the Whole. Ultimately we learn from that, hopefully. And from that learning process the Whole of God grows and expands.

So temporarily, as beings who are actually God, we can make bad decisions. Since we ARE God, we do have the power of Creation. Therefore we can mould matter into whatever shape we choose. Apart from the examples you cite - napalm etc - I also think of art. Given all the things that might be created as art, some choose in the famous modern Tate exhibitions, to put dead cows in formaldahyde (sp?) or to 'create' a dirty, filthy bedroom, and call this 'art'. Because we have the power to choose to create. The key point which you don't seem to get, but which I accept, being that all energy/matter is God, and the atoms are obedient to our will as Creators. They obey our consciousness and gather together into whatever form we decree. Yes, matter and atoms are God, for nothing isn't. But is the ultimate and absolute Will of God in the napalm or the Tate exhibitions? No, of course not, but the atoms are still a part of God. They aren't a dualistic thing separate from the Spirit and are ultimately a part of that Spirit and are also temporary so will return to the Source.

I think we are just getting stuck on you thinking of God as the 'thinking, planning, always-perfect being higher than us' and I am thinking of God in simply all His/Her aspects. To me, if God isn't in it, then matter can't exist. As to being misused and having atoms put into abominable forms - these can only last temporarily, since they are out of kilter with Divine Ideas, but it's part of the sacrificial nature of the Godhead, just like Jesus allowing himself to be put on the cross. It's the same process at a different level. Atoms allow themselves to be crucified for a time, but IMO are still God.

Now let's get a bit lighter! 😀

ORIGINAL: Principled

Sunanda once wrote that God was all, that the bottle of gin was God - that's the concept I can't swallow.

I don't know what Sunanda gets up to (are her ears burning?), but she was speaking metaphorically and not asking you to pour and drink from the glass! 😀

Venetian

RE: So who/what created God???

Sorry haven't read through all the threads, there are quite a lot.
To understand the "creation" of God we probably need to know what God is supposed to be. Individuals have different understanding/views of this concept.
Omnipotent, omnipresent andomniscience?? People may believe these are charateristics, even thoughin themselves lead to pradoxes.
There is no exsitence without observation; if a tree falls in the woods and there is no one to hear it does it make a sound,or a wave function does not collaspe until it is measured. The very act of observation creates a level of reality/illusion. So Godwould have been created the moment that the concept entered into peoples conciousness. If there was no concept of God the would be no exsitence of God.
Although this ideawould leads into paradoxes, (I think they will crop up a lot in any dicussion understanding God), as there will be manyconcepts leading to exsitence of God therefore many Gods, but some theseshould be a monothesitic dieityaccording to beliefs.
Hmmm, its pretty complicated isn't it?
Seraph

RE: So who/what created God???

How does your head not hurt? I can't even start to contemplate such issues as i just find them, so complex......i just can't get my head round it. I tried to think about it once and come up with my own theory, but i just couldn't. I admire you all for being able to contemplate these things so deeply.

[sm=nature-smiley-008.gif]

RE: So who/what created God???

"So Godwould have been created the moment that the concept entered into peoples conciousness. If there was no concept of God the would be no exsitence of God. "

Not if, according the the esoteric / mystical view, God comes first and we are his/her/its concept or conception. Moreover, according to the mystical view, we are all aspects of the Godhead, like drops in the larger Ocean, so in contemplating God we are then contemplating the core or Higher Nature of ourselves - what mystics call "the imprisoned splendour". In that view the Universe is One, and the illusion is that we are separate beings - separate from each other and from God. We are One, but under the illusion that we're not.

You might say that the fact that our observations change things such as at the quantum level proves that we are creators - a part of the Creator and still Creating.

V

RE: So who/what created God???

ORIGINAL: Ange

Hi SpiritSaver,

I just found this thread today, so would like to add my humble opinion. I was interested in your statement "you all seem more knowledgeable than I am" Well I beg to differ about that. Nobody is knowledgeable about God, that would be impossible unless they were dead and in Spirit (If the spirit world is what you happen to believe in)

Different people have different theories which is great, but nobody knows, even people who are brilliant at writing and explaining their theories, or researchers and scientists - they don't know for sure whether there is a God or not, so my point is that your knowledge on this subject is as good and as important as everyone elses!

So I would say it is up to us. If we can lead a useful life, learning along the way, and helping people, it is of no importance whether there is a God, or whether the human race has evolved naturally. The good thing about the God subject is that we can all please ourselves. If we want to believe in a man in the sky with a clipboard, great - some people like to do that. If we want to go to church - do it, If we want to believe in a great spiritual energy force for good, super. Wanna be an atheist? fine...let's all do our own thing and have our own beliefs. Make your God anything you want. There is a great spiritual love out there, a great spiritual love on these forums. If we love one another, help one another, and respect each other's views, our lives will be rich and fulfilled, and when we die..........well we'll find out for certain then, won't we:D:D:D

Love to you all
Moonstone xx

Just stumbled across this thread and had a quick look. Not read it all but this statement seems to say it all for me. Fascinated by this concept of "God". Sudiedit for years but never quite benn able to "accept" (much as I would like). Check out "fighting for God" thread for more ideas on this. They are connected.

RE: So who/what created God???

But if physics tells us nothing can be created or destroyed, then how can the original question have an answer - who/what created God? Does that mean physics has got it wrong?

Hugs
Steve

RE: So who/what created God???

Hi Steve,

In all kinds of subjects I tend to extrapolate in my mind, and sometimes I wonder why others don't. An example unconnected to this thread: every handful of years the dates get pushed back of when civilisation began on Earth, and also when the first sapiens-type species appeared. Both get pushed back just about every 3-6 years it seems. But every time they get pushed back in time, 'experts' consider that NOW it's the true and final time-frame ;). To me you only have to extrapolate to see that the process is going to continue.

Same with physics. We have to give some credence to physics-in-our-time as it's always a working theory that seems mostly to explain phenomena around us, though perhaps not everything. But theories are constantly being either gradually changed or - once in a while - utterly exchanged for a new and better one. So we still don't have a true and final physics.

So I doubt physics will ever tell us much about a Universal Consciousness. On the other hand, I believe a true understanding of any Universal Consciousness would give us lots of hints as to what may be the deep truths in physics.

I think many months ago Conspiritualist just off the top of his head I take it, gave a list of all the major inventions or theoretical breakthroughs that have occured by dreamy thinking or mysitical experiences, etc. They were not intellectually figured out at all. This IMO is an example of Consciousness (an aspect of God) giving greater insight into reality.

Oh, my point! :D- is that physics as we know it will probably never be able to say how things 'began' OR how it's possible if it should be there was no beginning. My guess that we're flat-Earthers on such matters and would never be able to take in the 4D answers.

Venetian

RE: So who/what created God???

ORIGINAL: SteveBishop

But if physics tells us nothing can be created or destroyed, then how can the original question have an answer - who/what created God? Does that mean physics has got it wrong?

Hugs
Steve

Who knows? Science tells us that nothing comes from nothing, otherwise it's magic, right? And magic doesn't exist, does it? So where the hell did this universe thing come from then? Even the commonly accepted big bang theory, if I understand it correctly, pre-supposes something before the bang. Be it God or science nobody, IMHO, can answer the question of existence totally. That includes God.

RE: So who/what created God???

Yes, just to rephrase my own last post. Physics is (1) ever-changing and evolving, so what does it 'know for sure' so far? Physics is, (2) from a spiritual-esoteric standpoint, always going to be a flat-Earth-style (merely intellectual/mathematical) attempt to grasp just the trailing end-garments of an ineffable ultimate reality, which intellect can never grasp. If intellectual knowledge is theory and 'thinking that we know', then mystical knowledge is Being Truth by experiencing it through a kind of merging into oneness with it.

There are also two basic approaches to what reality is that people take: that matter creates consciousness (the self is a product of the brain), or that Consciousness created matter. IMO the latter is not only the actual case, but even fits in better with quantum physics.

V

RE: So who/what created God???

ORIGINAL: venetian

There are also two basic approaches to what reality is that people take: that matter creates consciousness (the self is a product of the brain), or that Consciousness created matter. IMO the latter is not only the actual case, but even fits in better with quantum physics.

V

It is, I admit, difficult to argue with this idea. I have for years thought about this. Bit scary though, the idea of nothing out there.

RE: So who/what created God???

Well, Consciousness is out there, if that viewpoint is correct. And It seems to know what it's doing. ;)It's even created 'Laws of physics' so that we know where we stand and things aren't completely unpredictable and ever-changing. One thing I sometimes wonder about is, If the Laws of physics are a construct by some form of Consciousness, could other, different sets of Laws have been created that'd work just as consistently?

V

RE: So who/what created God???

I think that's called Murphy's Law! 😀

RE: So who/what created God???

God is Irish?? [:-]

It's bound to go wrong! Will what goes up just stay up?

RE: So who/what created God???

[sm=rollaugh.gif][sm=rollaugh.gif][sm=rollaugh.gif]

RE: So who/what created God???

ORIGINAL: venetian

God is Irish?? [:-]

It's bound to go wrong! Will what goes up just stay up?

Nonsense, everybody knows that God lives in Accrington. He is homeless and has no visible means of support.

RE: So who/what created God???

ORIGINAL: houseboy

Nonsense, everybody knows that God lives in Accrington. He is homeless and has no visible means of support.

Actually, if you find the right threads and persist in reading the dense text, God is apparently announcing his presence in the world, in body form, right here on HP!

V

RE: So who/what created God???

ORIGINAL: venetian

Actually, if you find the right threads and persist in reading the dense text, God is apparently announcing his presence in the world, in body form, right here on HP!

Yes but not very clearly or in terms we can understand 😉

RE: So who/what created God???

😀

RE: So who/what created God???

What difference would it make if you knew?.....The next question would be who or what created THAT!!!

God exisits........nothing else makes any sense otherwise..........be happy to accept that perhaps??

RE: So who/what created God???

Does God have a sense of humour? It would certainly appear so.

RE: So who/what created God???

Does God have a sense of humour?

You bet! And if you want to make Him laugh, just tell Him your plans!

RE: So who/what created God???

ORIGINAL: sunanda

Does God have a sense of humour?

You bet! And if you want to make Him laugh, just tell Him your plans!

Damn!...So that's why! [sm=rollaugh.gif][sm=rollaugh.gif][sm=rollaugh.gif]

RE: So who/what created God???

Will what goes up just stay up?

- God is of course Irish - and this is the answer to a Maiden's prayer.:D

RE: So who/what created God???

TBH I'm convinced. It fits all my data. God is Irish.

V

RE: So who/what created God???

Ah........ but is he Protestant Irish or Catholic Iish?

RE: So who/what created God???

Let's not even go there. [&:]I have not one, but two [&o]pals who can do uncanny (brilliant)represents of the Rev. Ian Paisley!