So the thread on forgiveness got me to thinking. do people believe in any sort of objective measure for "right" and "wrong" or is it all subjective?
I think I am in the middle myself. I think that there is somethings that are just wrong. violating another person is wrong. Of course, then you get into a mess when you have to define violating...etc. etc.
i don't think that there is one "rule" or objective measure that will hold true in all situations. But I do think that some things are wrong. One of hte best quotes, which I will absolutely mangle, was a definition of "sin" which I think applicable
"sin begins when you treat people (including yourself) as an object...There are worse things, but it all begins there." I look at what I consider "wrong" and I think it does come down to that usually. When a person is treated as if they are a thing, it's usually for a bad reason. I think that there is a great need to understand, and to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes...but I don't think that there is anything that is inherently wrong with then walking back in your own and determining right from wrong. I feel so egotistical when I say it that way. I"m not saying that I, me and me alone, have the right. I'm also not saying that i'm infallible or that a group would be infallible. To err is human as they say...and I'd add to that...to err big time is a society's fault. We're going to make mistakes in judging what is right and wrong. big mistakes and little mistakes. 50 years from now, i would probably be able to look back and see where I committed "wrongs" without knowing it.
but I just can't help but think that some things are flat-out, absolutely wrong...to me, the idea of absolute moral relativity is too hard to accept. I wouldn't want to live in that kind of world.
and as far as cultural relativity goes, I don't believe in absolute moral or cultural relativity. I understand that you should understand a culture before judging it...and that there are certain things that I'll never get as I'll never truly be a part of it, even if i were to study my brains out and maybe even live there forever. I do understand that. But because something is culturally acceptable, doesn't make it right.
which, on a side note, irritates me also because people talk about "culture" as if it is one voice and stationary. when if you look closely, you'll probably allmost always dissenting voices and views and a constant shifting--but that is another soapbox of mine and slightly off topic...lol.
but I look at my culture...slavery was once acceptable and in my opinion was just as wrong then. just because the majority make a moral judgment doesn't make it right...but then, I do think that some things are just wrong.
edited to say: I'm really jittery and scattered tonight....my post probably demonstrates that
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Hi Crystarra. Interesting question, thank you for posting it.
Why is no one able to say these days that right is right and wrong is wrong?
Lines between the two were so much clearer cut years ago.
We seem to have a society now which refuses to make any clear judgement between the two?
If we look inside ourselves, we always know if what we do is the right thing or the wrong thing surely?
If we look at others' actions, we can judge if they are meant to harm, provoke or belittle us, or if they uplift, calm and make us happy.
Why the difficulty in separating them?
It appears that in attempting to make the world an easier place for those who are not what is considered the 'norm' we have gone too far over the other side. Tipped the balance.
Left to ourselves, not being told what to do, Big Brother type, the huge majority of people will treat everyone else with equality. The minority would only be heard in passing. And have little effect.
Why get into a mess when you say someone has 'violated'someone else? If they have done this, then it surely should be recognised and acted upon accordingly? If a person hurts someone else, physically or mentally, then they have abused that person. True we should take into account WHY they acted like this, but, again, the majority of us have inbuilt guidelines which tell us how far we can and cannot go. Those who step over these boundaries are dangerous and should be curtailed. The method of doing this should be humane, and in recognition of their own pain which caused them to act this way. But, the facts are that if they do this to another person, it is out of choice.
We all have these choices all through our lives. Those who step over the wall and put themselves before others have done wrong. To recognise this is simply to defend what thousands of years of evolution have set in place, the survival of the species and therefore the removal of those who have done wrong.
I am talking here, when I say 'removal' of crimes that merit imprisonment, but equally, personal crimes from one person to another which are not recognised by the Law but equally painful can be dealt with by walking away from the person who is causing the grief.
I do support compassion,and recognise the manner in which humans have gradually found this to be more and more important in our dealings with those who hurt us or break the Law. I personally believe this is the way forward to a future filled with people who do NOT act against each other, many years in the future. But for now, why not just say, 'this person has done wrong, we must find out what we can do to help him but also protect him from others'.
Love Gillyxxx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
I couldn't agree more with you, Gilly.
We all know right from wrong, and we know when we have upset someone or made them feel bad, even if we try to confirm it to ourselves that the person who did the bad thing was in the 'right' to do it.
In an attempt to placate everyone and see all acts as 'valid' nowadays, we risk losing that moral obligation to others.
Love,
Patsy.
xxxxx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Thanks Patsy,
No one knows what to think these days. [:o]There are simply no guidelines left which are not wishy washy around the edges and unclear and biased towards the 'underdog' whatever that means???????? Whatever we now say about dogma and organised religion, of which I might add I am not fond of at all, it did give the massess absolute rules as to what is and is not permitted within the framework of any society. And promised punishements if they transgressed either physical or spiritual.
We do indeed have to move on from this kind of dictatorship - but in trying to do so, we have simply stopped thinking for ourselves, and allowed the PC brigade and Heaven knows who else to influence us and to take control.
One only has to look at the Tony Martin fiasco and how we now have 'guidelines' on how to deal with burglars[:@]
This isn'ta political rant, as HP does not allow it, but an illustration on how we are besing gradually undermined and taken over, whilst we sit in front of our digital widescreen TV's and go shopping[8D]
And, so you also agree Patsy, we have a moral obligation to OURSELVES as well? I certainly think we do.
No, I am not suggesting we bring back the cane[8D] or capital punishment. I am suggesting we do not loose the power to think for ourselves and will find that deep within us all we know the difference between right and wrong and are more than capable of living within both the power and the boundaries that come with this.
Love
Gillyxxx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Basically this is coming down to having Moral right and wrongs and Guidelines for such. In days past, people had less of the "worldy" information at hand and had to learn through their own communities and families. All children and their children alike were brought up with their own families values, and for families to live together in communities they made an effort to fit in with each other to keep the peace. Religion played a bigger part in everyones lives and most people would attend church where they would be taught the stories from the Bible. These stories provided the Moral Guidelines that people were expected to abide by. The lack of information from elsewhere meant that few people had the opportunity to think any different to what they were being told. Even when I was a small child back in the 70's I was brought up to go to Sunday school and attend harvest festival in the local church. Even now if you look back at these Moral Guidelines set out by the communities you may have the opinion that some of these things are wrong, based on todays society. i.e. A womans place is in the home and the man should be the breadwinner Or people who do not belief in the same morals should be punished.
Nowadays we have our "information age". There is so much information available to us that people have the opportunity to experience and look into anything and everything. People have the chance to make their own decisions and follow their own path rather than it being dictated to them for the whole duration of their life.
All rights and wrongs are subjective and/or relative. Society cannot make a clear judgement between the two as we have removed the dictatorship that controlled the morals.
Our rights and wrongs are contained within varying "cells" of social engagement. We have the rights and wrongs that we define within our own person, the rights and wrongs that are defined within our own homes, the rights and wrongs defined by our own religious community (if you subscribe to one), the rights and wrongs defined in our workplace, the rights and wrongs defined by our local village/town/community, the rights and wrongs defined by the laws of our country, the rights and wrongs defined by our European community (those of us who live here), the rights and wrongs of humankind etc. etc.
It is not possible to take all of these rights and wrongs and produce one definitive list. For example, I think there is nothing wrong with me wearing casual clothes especially when I am at home, but in my workplace this is seen as wrong as it does not present a professional image. Both are right in one context and wrong in another.
In some cultures in the world they may see that a man sleeping with a woman from a different "caste" is totally wrong and the man and woman may be flogged to death for such a thing. This is seen as right in their community and they truly believe this within themselves. This is the morals that they have been brought up with. Yes Crystarra there may be a few amongst the community who think that this is wrong and that just highlights the different "cells" of right/wrongness. In other cultures this is seen as barbaric, as why should two people who love each other not share their lives together.
As Gilly says, we have to look inside ourselves. This is the only place where we can find right and wrong according to our own beliefs. It will be a long time before the energy of the universe reaches a balance such that right and wrong is uniform amongst all.
Love and Reiki Hugs
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
No you are all wrong and I am right and my mission is to convert you all ha ha
Who am I to judge who or what is right or wrong
All I can be is true to my truths in the knowing nothing is fact and live in love of all
To create peace in my inner being
To have inner peace I cant sit in judgment on things I will endeavor to do so
But I notice all the judgments I have on people and things every day just to make me look good to my self and others like this statement
Have a awesome day in all you see that is right and wrong
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Everything that exists and everything that’s lives, is subject to GOD’s universal law of justice and equality.
Man’s earthly and individual laws fragment and destroy communion with divine law.
So let us not put ourselves above the law of GOD by deciding what is right or wrong, let GOD be our conscience for there is no true morality without freedom.
The more taboos and prohibitions there are in the world
The poorer people will be
The more sharp weapons the people have
The more troubled the start will be
The more cunning and skill man possesses,
The more vicious things will appear
The more law and orders are made prominent
The more thieves and robbers there will be.
Lao Tzu
Judge others and you are judged
Condemn others and you are condemned
Judgement blocks the third eye
Blame vexes the Spirit and disables the angel within
This is anti-love which also blocks the heart chakra
When the heart is blocked there is no true conscience of righteous justice or honour of the universal laws.
Allowing others to reap what they sow without judgement.
Humanity is going through a great transition, the gap is widening between the illusion set up in the past and movement forward to create a Kingdom of Love and a new plane of existence. The children of the light are leading the children of the dawn out of the wilderness of darkness of the old covenant of sin, right –v-wrong that created human judgement of GOD’s children.
Both Jesus and Plato supported ‘original goodness’ and the law of preservation which is determined by ‘good measure’. Enemy thinking creates the enemy for we are one in group consciousness. What we think we do indeed co-create for energy follows thought. Time for humanity to grow up and take responsibility for its creation of the darkness that exists on planet earth. 2,000 years later we are still to learn and live the truth that Jesus tried to teach us.
1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Matthew 7 NIV
The divine law of reconciliation asks us to reconcile within ourselves and once this is done we can reconcile with GOD and GOD’s universal laws. For what we resist will indeed persist until such time as we choose to change and raise our consciousness by embracing the new covenant of the law of love.
“Righteous Anger
can be transformed
into Righteous Love
which you can demonstrate
through Zealous Compassion.
And by your good works
you shall be known.”
Kim ©2005 Love Union
Love beyond measure
Kim xx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Jesus also said, 'do not cast your pearls before swine'
Gxxxxxxxxx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
And brent said “you can pass cast your pearls before swine or not in love with out making “swine” wrong”
And love to all that walk here in all you perceive them to be to you
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
ORIGINAL: Sacredstar
Everything that exists and everything that’s lives, is subject to GOD’s universal law of justice and equality.Man’s earthly and individual laws fragment and destroy communion with divine law.
So let us not put ourselves above the law of GOD by deciding what is right or wrong, let GOD be our conscience for there is no true morality without freedom.
According to your own beliefs and your own God. At the end of the day, right or wrong comes down to each and every persons own moral beliefs. 😉
Love and Reiki Hugs
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Dear Giles,
I honesty think we have inherent understanding of the difference between right and wrong which is subliminal and born within each of us.
I also believe that each soul is unique, although part of one Whole, and not only is able to but SUPPOSED to reason and think for itself - and not be bound by anyone else's (sometimes enlightening, sometimes disturbing) understanding of the Nature of God/Universe/souls etc. This must be a vital part of the learning process of the soul.... the ability to discern right from wrong is therefore inbuilt ... but as with all things, we have CHOICE - which is to recognise this and use it, or to ignore it.
I enjoy reading your posts very much by the way;)
Love Gillyxxx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Dear Giles
Well it seems it matters not whether one believes in GOD or not scientists are now uncovering the natural laws of the cosmos.
Brian Greene is a theoretical physicist and public champion of superstring theory being hailed as the next Stephen Hawking.
The Times 19/02/2004
"If we are uncovering the laws of physics and that's all there is, its a noble task, if we are uncovering laws a deity put in place that's pretty exciting too" Brian Greene
And so it is the scientists are now slowly unveiling the natural metaphysical laws. The early church new of these laws Jerome calls them spiritual laws, in one of St Jerome's letters discussing what should go into the bible they decided to leave out the natural laws due to Egyptians killing and maiming themselves for trangressing the laws in thought, word and deed, so their decision was made to protect society from the knowledge to protect people from self harm.
But yet in modern age children are self harming and taking their own lives so humanity is no better off by not having access to the full knowledge of these laws. In fact I feel that humanity is ready but it is more easily accepted by materialists and reducationists when science proves the existence.
Onwards and upwards
Kim xx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Actually Jesus would never use search a term as swine for those that were not evolved to understand the truth. And Also if you are coming from a viewpoint of balance, the natural expression of oneself only works with all things as they are all at one with each other, and see it as self harm. As far as i know theyre is only one law, that is divine law. Whatever comes after that, is purely down to the process breaking down and needing more confines for the lost of heart and of balance. No laws are needed to police those who have no judgement, powers of forgiveness, no anger, no need for those who live in the light and love of truth. As they can see and feel the pain inflicted in such a way our detachment does not allow us to see. Another point is Good and bad goes on in your life, but you will learn lessons from them both. Until such time you evolve through suffering, you wont need the good or bad, right or wrong, you will simply just know. And express yourself in conduct that could never be destructive or with emotional hangups that anchor you to the ground. Along with forgiveness, we have the power now to transcend all that has gone before, forgiving the ills of a million years. cleansing the soul and purifying it with unconditional love. If our way of stumbling with a Gun from one explosion to the next was the true nature of the human perception of the Universe, we simply would have been destroyed from our ancestors long ago for mindless fun. Instead we are partitioned in a realm akin to vibrational treacle, devoid of evolution of the mind , spirit and soul, in order for us to evolve through this pain.
No more though.
With humility, awareness and open mind, and its gifts are theyre for you now. Limitation is all down to your fear of being free. You dont have to live this way no more.
"illuminate not indoctrinate"
L+L
A
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Love all that walk in this place
Judgment sits in the self in the feeling the feelings of joy hatred in the jealousy ect
In the self and the feeling as they show what you are being
In love of acceptance peace will be found and drive the murder not hurt others and self no more
Love all that is in the feelings for the forgiveness flows are the feelings are released
Love all as the feeling flow and heal all that is you
for in the feelings not in the reasons peace sits in the knowing all is gods will and loved not in the love of passion but in the love of acceptance the love the mother has for her child
for all is one all is you as you see the people in judgment you see the bits of you in their way of being
love sent to all that walk in this place love to all that sit hatred and condemnation love to all the healers love to all the murders
love to all
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
I look at big things and little things and can't help but see some of them in terms of right and wrong. The holocaust--which someone somewhere mentioned. That was wrong. Raping a child. That is wrong.
because something is "wrong" doesn't mean that you can't have compassion...doesn't mean that you stop trying to understand it. And yes, as soon as we humans start classifying as right/wrong, we're going to make mistakes. Sometimes we're going to make judgments without knowing all the facts and sometimes we are going to make perpetuate or continue doing "wrong" things for "wrong" reasons--greed is a big reason that comes to mind. Desire to maintain our own comfort level and not mess up our equilibrium by getting involved.
Right and wrong aren't, in my opinion absolutes, and we are going to make mistakes...but isn't that what we as humans and what we as a society should learn from? I think of slavery as a classic example. Slavery was considered right. It was not questioned by many people for many years, while ironically enough, we had fought for "inalienable" human rights--those of white, male land owners only counted apparently...lol. But it was usually only considered "right" from the slave owner's point of view. what about the slaves'? I wouldn't want to tell them that they shouldn't judge the institution of slavery harshly. I like to think that we as a society have learned and grown from that though. We are far from perfect, there are a great many wrongs, personal and social, local and global, that are committed every second...but I like to think that by judging...yes judging...which to me means examining actions and even criticizing actions and beliefs, that we are evolving to a better understanding and a better world. I think that we have every right to judge the institution of slavery. it was wrong. I think that we have every right to judge laws like the "rule of thumb" which entitled a man to beat his wife and children with sticks no thicker than his thumb. I think that we have every right to judge a rapist. We will make mistakes, but I personally think we can learn a lot from mistakes...more even than we can learn from suffering. They say that those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it...i'd take it a step further and say that those who don't judge their history are doomed to repeat it as well. If we don't look back and say, "that was wrong" what is to stop us from doing it again? It also seems to me that by taking an absolutist approach to "right/wrong" as in there is no right or wrong allows a lot of things to continue that shouldn't. I guess that's another philosophical debate though...is it worse for a "bad" person to do "bad, or a "good" person to let them? By saying that nothing is right or wrong, I feel that we are releasing society from it's resposnibility to itself. In my opinion, we're not just responsible for ourselves and our actions, but we are responsible for our society's actions since we are a part of society.
I believe that everyone has the potential to be great and to do wonderful things. But for whatever reason, some people choose not to live up to that potential. Whether it was a
contract made before birth or because they had a horrible life or because of a million other reasons, potential means nothing if you don't live up to it.
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Zero judgement is a big subject and multi-dimensional one could write 1,000's of words to explain it in its entirety and one of the problems is that humanity are very slow learners slavery wasn't once it was many times in history going back 1,000's of years but yet humanity did not learn from it and in many ways slavery still exists today but in different forms of bondage, power and control.
In the same way there was a time in history when men sought to fight and kill each other for pure entertainment, I never thought I would say this but thank GOD for television!
Take a woman that experienced sexual abuse as a child from her father, this is a real case as an adult she discovers that it was all part of her divine purpose, she chose it pre-incarnation so that she could truly understand other victims of abuse and assist others to make breakthroughs in healing the self. Suffering can also be to do with the purification of soul and people can become more compassionate, caring and loving as a result of it.
Another person experiences hell in other ways learns from the experience to help others so that they avoid the experience of hell on earth, so all as a reason for being and begs the question who are we to judge if we do not have any conscious awareness of that person's soul journey and their reason for being and having their experiences.
But while we stand in judgement of others we are compounding the enemy within and supporting victim thinking and creation.
We have a choice we can judge or we can be divine love in manifestation on the earth plane.
Love beyond measure
kim xx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Hi brent love sent in all forms
Love to all that you be and all that work and in spirit and in the physical to bring you better understanding in spirit and the way of being in love of all at that is you all that is this amassing and sacred place
The place that you call earth plain in all the glory the freedom that can be realized all the experience you can experience in this plain experience all that is emotional way of being
With the expansiveness of the limits of the balances and the paradoxes of this plan where all truths are not true but just a perception of ones belief in the changing of beliefs and in creation of passion all things are all possible
There is no place or realm that sits in such beauty with so much diversity in life forms the true god energy run in the creation with no restraints in all that people see as good and evil sits in the true god energy it’s a place you can walk in heaven and hell for the chouse is yours in the perception of the emotions that stirs in you and releases in you
The place that all can be experience in the self in on a personal level the oneness and a way of being that is truly self an alone ness that us in spirit have no concept off but for you is a way of being you can keep secrets from each other
The love you can feel here in the physical in for another an other experience very unique to the earth plan this sensation would not be experienced with out the feeling of jealousy ect bless all the feelings for you can walk in so many experiences all at the same time
Love all that is you as all in spirit do
To walk in mastery of the emotions is a place that sits is the paradox of joy and fun of living in the emotion as a way of being in the releasing as they rise in your being
In the understanding that to know true joy that experiencing true hard ship not in the physical but in the emotional level
to walk in the physical hard ship to experience hard ship in a belief is away to reach spirit in a form of self sacrifice is only for some to experience
for in this time self and spirit walk in one and communication is your for the asking and in love can be realized
in being open living in the fear as more emotion released as in you being
the fear being hurt sits in the perception of how things are to you walk in the knowing what hurts you is the perception of how things should be not in the “they are wrong in what they did to hurt me”
love them for releasing that fear that you hold on to the belief that a wrong act will be punished for this stops the release of the emotional healing process for in the release true forgiveness can be obtained and the fear just vanishes
love all that is the paradox that the more love that sits in this plain the more that you create heaven in there internal being will created heaven in the love of others
the fear that sits in the internal judgment shows the fears that sites in you in fear the healing of the earth plain slows in the opening of the self the fear is released and the universal understanding of the mass conciseness moves to the universal understanding
in the shearing of ones emotions in the feelings with out reservation plain will heal in love and you will walk in the time of peace that the profits have forecast for the earth plain
in the shearing of you in the way you feel from that you are not right or wrong but in the love of trying to understanding the others point of view in the communication of others
the greater understanding of the others point of view can be obtained
in that understanding you can choose to work with them or walk with out them at this time in that is there point of view and you choose to through love of the other but is not the way you want to perceive this world
love to all you be and others be for in love all will sit
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
ORIGINAL: vortex
in that understanding you can choose to work with them or walk with out them at this time in that is there point of view and you choose to through love of the other but is not the way you want to perceive this world
and in that i love your point of veiw
but it dose not work for me
love your veiw and respect it
love brent
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Galatians 6:7-9: " Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gxxxxxxxxxxx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Who can mock what we have no concept of
In that who is right or wrong in what is god is
Hi brent in love we give you
Its time to stop the sitting in the right and wrong and the justifying who you are
Look at the big picture you are as the others on this site sit are the leaders of the new time
And in the shearing in love of all you be together in the true pitcher why you are here
Leaving the self created stresses of the physical world behind and follow the power the truth that sits in you walk in love of all in all that is
Its time to shine love to all walk in love of all that is you
Its time to walk in love
Every ones opinions are valid and sit in love of all
The pain of others in there suffering is not yours to own
But in love you can heal them in respect in all they be will give you and them better understanding in to the mass conciseness thinking and walk in love with them
In the power that is you sits in you not in all the reasons and excess
Its time to sit in your integrity and stand strong in your knowing
The things you are seeing have to be cleaned up and bring up your energy levels
The thing you don’t wont to own about you self they to sit in judgment own them
In love of self and all that is you
In the self all answers are you
you are you own guru follow what you know is true
In that space your learning will come
All ways question all said from us and in the physical in that the truths will evolve and hold on to those that sit true in you and find that space inside of peace not in the reasons of external fear and retribution
Love sits in the place of the peace in your being in the internal space of acceptance and shear joy of being in this awesome planet
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
ORIGINAL: gillyann
I honesty think we have inherent understanding of the difference between right and wrong which is subliminal and born within each of us.
I suppose it's possible that we are born with a pre-programmed right and wrong, although I personally believe that the majority of it comes from our perceptions and learning as we grow. We don't know that it's wrong to touch stinging nettles or eat dirt or scream loudly into the ears of our parents, but we use our perceptions of the reactions we get from these to learn. Stinging nettles, we touch them for the first time in our lives and our body reacts with a stinging feeling that hurts. We learn that this hurts and associate it with the nettles and don't do it again. We eat dirt, which doesn't have an immediate bodily reaction, but our parents see us do this and tell us off, with time we learn that being told off is not right but not before we've eaten dirt a few more times ;).
However, sometimes we are hurt but we are told that this is ok, and the more we get hurt and the more we are told it's ok, the more accepting we become of this hurt and the more we believe that it is right for this hurt to exist. This can lead to us subjecting others to this hurt believing that what we are doing is not wrong, and if these others are not told that it is ok, then they will be wrongly hurt.
Sometimes what we believe is right, is wrong and sometimes what we believe is wrong is right. IMO rights and wrongs are learned perceptions of our society and upbringing.
If we were born with rights and wrongs then it would be possible to bring up a baby to adulthood in a solitary environment with no stimulus (except say learning to communicate and walk etc) and then as an adult release them into the world and they would inherently know whether they were doing something wrong or not. I feel that if this experiment were carried out, then the person would exhibit much confusion and behaviours of a new born child learning things for the first time.
I also believe that each soul is unique, although part of one Whole, and not only is able to but SUPPOSED to reason and think for itself - and not be bound by anyone else's (sometimes enlightening, sometimes disturbing) understanding of the Nature of God/Universe/souls etc. This must be a vital part of the learning process of the soul.... the ability to discern right from wrong is therefore inbuilt ... but as with all things, we have CHOICE - which is to recognise this and use it, or to ignore it.
The ability to discern right from wrong is by learning and associating our actions with the reactions and the perceptions that we receive from those reactions.
I enjoy reading your posts very much by the way;)
Thank you Gilly. [sm=hug.gif] I enjoy yours too. It's always interesting to see people's responses to what I write.
Love and Reiki Hugs
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Some have learnt to ride above the sea of emotion, some are still to awaken to the ancient wisdom within.
Others are taking the elevator, due to the evolvement of their souls through many incarnations.
Walking between the worlds until the transition of humanity is complete.
Love beyond measure
kim xx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Hello Giles,
I would say that each person is born 'good' but influences and conditioning may turn that goodness into something else.
Love,
Patsy.
xxxxx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Agreed Songstress
As Buddha said
"The supreme test of righteousness is compassion' for all.
In the immaculate heart of compassion and the perfection of unconditional love there is no judgement.
Love beyond measure
Kim xx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
In the immaculate heart of compassion and the perfection of unconditional love there is no judgement.
A wonderful truth to strive to...
I have met some remarkable people in my life but still have to meet someone who have reached this high level of being...
And I just have to add, I have met quite a few people who think they have reached this level of being... (spiritual pride hampers so many peoples growth, and it is such a shame...)
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
ORIGINAL: songstress
Hello Giles,
I would say that each person is born 'good' but influences and conditioning may turn that goodness into something else.
Depends how you look at it Patsy.
IMO each person is born without knowledge or belief in good or bad. They are born neutral or innocent.
This could be taken as being that, because they are not born with any 'bad', then they must be good.
Love and Reiki Hugs
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
I agree Giles, that it is also a part of our upbringing, what we are taught by our parents and teachers and those around us which influences our lives and teaches us the difference between right and wrong.
Love Gillyxxx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Dear Amber
Yes I agree the garments of pride have to come off before people can get really inside the heart of conscience, otherwise the conscience works in the same way as a dusty lense of perception.
To acheive that state of being 100%, 100% of the time one would need to be a saint and I can assure you that I have not won my halo!
Dear Gilles and Gillyann
Yes I agree 'Children live what they learn' but we also know from astrology that although babies are born of goodness they also have some negative astrological traits to overcome. All part of the journey, I found 'Astrology for the Soul' enlightening on soul journey's (purpose, past lives, and obstacles to overcome) dictated by the north nodes in birth charts.
Love beyond measure
Kimxx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
That all depends I suppose, Kim, on how much credence anyone personally gives to astrology:D
Gillyxxxx
RE: right/wrong... objective/subjective? Spin-off from Forgiveness
Hello Giles,
Bless! That's what I was meant to say! Heh heh! 😀
Love,
Patsy.
:D:D