I hope that people are interested in this; this is one of my favorite exercises. I've heard the story told slightly differently, but for my sanity's sake, just go with how I tell it 😛 or explain your alterations...this is one of those theoretical discussions (again, I love doing these things, but if no one else is interested, that's fine...lol)
ok, so once upon a time, there was a baron and a baronness. The Baron was leaving for an extended trip and before he went he told the Baronness that she was not to leave the castle. He said to her, "Wife, I have left strict instructions that if you enter this castle, you are to be killed. Know that if you are not here, that I can find you. And again, you will be executed."
So the baron left. After awhile, the baronness--bored out of her gord--snuck out of the castle one evening to go visit her lover. She was able to swim across the moat. However, she stayed the night with her lover because of the torrential rainfall that occurred that evening. The next day, she heard that the baron would soon be home. Panic-stricken, she ran back to the moat, but due the rainfall, there was no way she could cross it. She looked around and saw a ferry. She asked the man who was--er...driving (sorry, I don't know the right word) the ferry and begged him to let her across. He told her that unless she could pay him two gold pieces, he would not let her across. She explained the situation, but he remained adamant. No gold, no crossing. Pay immediately. She ran back to her lover and begged him for two gold pieces. Even though he had the money, he refused to give any to her; explaining that they had a nice and fun affair, but nothing more than this. Desperate, she approached the front of the castle. There was a guard on the drawbridge. She begged (from a distance) him to let her in the castle, promising never to let her husband know that he let her in. He told her that while he liked her, that he had his orders. "If you can find another way in the castle without having to go by me, then I will never reveal to the baron that you left. However, I have my orders and I will follow them. If you try to cross this drawbridge, I will kill you."
The baronness searched and searched for another way in. She begged her lover and the ferryman and the guard one last time to allow her past. All remained firm in their positions. Finally, out of sheer desperation, she tried dashing past the guard. The guard, as he was ordered and had promised he would do, killed the baronness.
Anyone want to rate the repsonsibility of the baron, baronness, lover, ferryman, and guard (in order of appearance) from greatest to least responsible for the baronness's death?
and try not to assume facts outside of the story--almost inevitably, someone says "the baron probably would have done_______ to _______ if htey would/not have_________'d" or "in those days, this was the norm..." this is a fictional story in a fictional world...lol
hopefully ppl besides me like these lil debates...lol
RE: Rate the responsibility
Ah, one of these. I like it when there's no correct answer and like you, I like to see what other people think too.
Ok, this is how I would put it on first impressions....
In order of responsibility:
The Baron - Because he has no right to impose such restrictions on anyone. It was he who ordered that she should be killed regardless of who performed the act. Imposing rules on people makes them want to break them even more. If the rule hadn't been imposed she would not have been killed, she would have gone to see her lover regardless.
The Baronness - Because knowing the rule that had been imposed, she was foolish to leave the castle without a perfect way of returning without being killed.
The Lover - Because love is commitment and he showed no commitment to his lover, knowing that she would be killed if he did not give her the gold. He did not truly love the Baronness, he was just out to get his wicked way with her.
The Guard - Because he could easily have let the Baronness back in the castle and it would have been a secret between himself and the Baronness. However he was put under pressure to carry out his duty by the Baron who would no doubt have killed the guard if he found out that the Guard had gone against orders. He was in fear of his own life. If the guard had let the Baronness in, there was no fear that she would have used this against the guard in the future as it would have imlications for her own life.
The Ferryman - Because he was just carrying out his job, and who is he to know who is telling the truth or who is just trying to get a free ride. You get nothing for free in this life.
😉
RE: Rate the responsibility
ok, reponsibility (on the assumption that this word has the same meaning to everyone):
the baroness: if she truly loved the baron, why should she want to sneak off and see a lover? she betrays both herself and the baron. she enables a situation where everyone else has to make a choice as a consequence of her personal decision.
the guard: for taking a life when his own life is not directly threatened, he could choose to run away.
the baron: if he truly loved the baroness he wouldn't want to restrict her freedom, and for putting the guard in a morally difficult position.
the lover: for being dishonest and not being a 'lover' at all!
the ferryman: for the same reasons as Giles.
RE: Rate the responsibility
I put the guard first. he literally ended her life. It was his choice to kill her and ultimately, he could have stopped himself.
A close second is the baron. He had no right to impose or order someone to kill her. Also, being killed is not a "natural consequence" of leaving your home or of cheating on your husband. This was a consequence that the guard and the baron chose to implement. If the baronness had drowned because she tried swimming across the moat, i'd have put her first.
next is the baronness--she knew she was taking a risk by running across the guard who had promised to kill her
the lover--at this point, it's a toss up between him and the ferryman--but I put him ahead of the ferryman because I just sort of think that there was or should have been more of an emotional bond and therefore, he had somewhat greater responsibility towards her than
the ferryman because he could have helped and I do think that we are all connected and interresponsible to some degree.
RE: Rate the responsibility
People are 'who they are' because of what WE say they are! By reinforcing the Baron's orders the guard let down the Baronness. By not giving her the gold she needed her Lover let her down. By not allowing her to board the ferry to avoid death the Ferryman let her down. It just needed everyone to say ''This won't happen, I will not play a part in this or allow you to kill her'' for the Baron to be unable to carry out this order. We are each responsible for our own actions. With everyone looking out for her and of course for her not to be sneaking around behind his back, she would still be alive. I believe EVERYONE was responsible for her death, because they knew what would happen and didn't help prevent it.
RE: Rate the responsibility
A real poser and I pretty much agree with Crystarra's interpretation. Extrapolating out from this there are echoes from "An Inspector Calls" by J.B.Priestley - about a poor girl who died because of a series of events surrounding the behaviour of an upper middle class families behaviour. As I remember the son was her lover who let her down, the daughter had her sacked from her job, the mother refused her alms. All acted separately and without malice - but together they were collectively responsible for her death. The moral of the story was how we each individually are responsible for each other.
Sharonx
RE: Rate the responsibility
do you think that they are all equally responsible? I kinda consider some more responsible than others.
RE: Rate the responsibility
I consider them to be equal in their responsibility for her death [&o]
Now it's over to you..... what is your order of the list of people? 🙂
RE: Rate the responsibility
In the order and for the reasons I stated.
Ultimately, the guard--he actually killed her. Then the baron--he had no right to impose the consequences he did. Then the baronness then the lover and finally the ferryman. I knw a lot of people who wouldn't hold the ferryman and some who wouldn't hold either the ferryman or the lover responsible, but I think that they are somewhat responsible. The big three though are the guard, baron and baronness.
RE: Rate the responsibility
something that I always wanted to do is give a couple of different forms of this story out and see how it changes people's perceptions of responsibility. One form would have the baronness just out in the meadow picking wildflowers or something. I kind of think that for the most part, people would be a little easier on her if she wasn't somehow morally "wrong" or even another form where she was out helping someone who was sick--then she'd be morally "right"
also, would be interesting to see if some gender switching would change people's ideas. if it was the baronness who had the baron killed (and offer the three reasons why he was out).
I just somehow think that many people's ideas of responsibility depend on their perception of the person as a person--if that makes sense?
RE: Rate the responsibility
Regardless of the morals and sexes, my order would still stand.
RE: Rate the responsibility
I completely agree with the reasons behind Giles's order, although would have to put the lover AFTER the Guard.
The Baron
The Baroness
The Guard
The Lover
The Ferryman
RE: Rate the responsibility
Here's mine:
Baroness - she was ultimately responsible for her own actions, and she knew they carried the possibilty of death.
Guard - chose to follow orders and actually commited the murder.
Baron - he created the rules and the punishment.
Lover - placed just above the ferryman because of the intimate relationship.
Ferryman - like all good tradesman in any age: just doing his job, mate;)
I don't believe gender changes or impeccable morals would change my order! But you could always try it with another story:)
Aragorn
RE: Rate the responsibility
I find it difficult to place them , other than the lover and the ferryman, who I would have at the bottom in that order.
The one that feels best for me though is:
Baroness - she is ultimately responsible for her own actions, and was aware of the consequenses.
Guard - he killed her, and despite being under orders, still has the choice not to.
Baron - he issued the orders
Lover - he could have helped by providing the gold which he had, but chose not to
Ferryman - he is a tradesman making a living, its not his responsibility (although it could have been his moral choice)
But then again - the baron actually had no involvement in the act, whereas every one of the other four could have done something to prevent it. I'm going to go now, have spent to long pondering this!
RE: Rate the responsibility
ORIGINAL: Crystarra
something that I always wanted to do is give a couple of different forms of this story out and see how it changes people's perceptions of responsibility. One form would have the baronness just out in the meadow picking wildflowers or something. I kind of think that for the most part, people would be a little easier on her if she wasn't somehow morally "wrong" or even another form where she was out helping someone who was sick--then she'd be morally "right"
also, would be interesting to see if some gender switching would change people's ideas. if it was the baronness who had the baron killed (and offer the three reasons why he was out).
I just somehow think that many people's ideas of responsibility depend on their perception of the person as a person--if that makes sense?
I don't believe that she is responsible at all - she is murdered for leaving a house just because some man wants to control her, not for the adultery, she only exercises the right to exist, basically.
If he pays someone to murder her that is certainly no better than doing it himself - he and the murderer are as bad as each other, and anyone who will cause someone's death for trivial amounts of money is very nearly as bad.
the baroness: if she truly loved the baron, why should she want to sneak off and see a lover? she betrays both herself and the baron.
This is one of those making assumptions outside the story bits, though, isn't it, was she ever meant to love him or was she sold in marriage at the age of 13?
RE: Rate the responsibility
In my view, everyone in the story is equally as culpable.
Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxxx
RE: Rate the responsibility
So if a man says to his wife I will murder you (or have you murdered) if you leave the house, and she dares not be a prisoner and he murders her, she is guilty of something, and as bad as him? I know there are people who try to persuade the courts of that argument on a depressingly regular basis but surely no one thinks it has any moral currency?
RE: Rate the responsibility
I didn't say that the wife was as bad as the husband; I said that she contributed to her own downfall.
Patsy.
RE: Rate the responsibility
Id rate the responsibility in the order that the whole scene chronolgically happened. BAron, baroness, lover, ferryman, guard. that seems to make snese to me. no matter how involvedeach person was, they each had a time and place that encountered the baronesses predicament.
RE: Rate the responsibility
...so therefore the responsibility comes when it is presented to you .
RE: Rate the responsibility
Yes, so each person was responsible for the outcome.
Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxx