God Speaks . . .

Hi Crowan,

What is your understanding of deities and gods reached through shamanism? How are you categorizing deities? How are you categorizing gods?

How does your understanding of deities and gods differ from the understanding of deities and gods expressed by others?

I’d categorize a deity or god as any spirit/being that is regarded by anyone as such – Allah, Jehova, Artemis, Isis etc. etc. Plus a great many whose names we don’t still know. It’s more to do with how we regard them than anything particular about them.
We are in a cycle of lives and deaths, learning as we go, until we reach a stage at which we can leave this cycle and start the next. It is on the next cycle that our spirit guides and teachers reside, still learning, eventually to reach the next cycle, then the next, and so on. They have teachers who are on the cycle above them. Some of the gods/deities reside there as well. Indeed, some gods are teachers. (Four of my spirit teachers are generally regarded as gods.) In a sense we create these positions by our needs and wants. My teachers describe it as ‘job descriptions’ – our thoughts create a space and a spirit fills it.
Other gods are nature spirits. Imagine yourself in a culture where the shaman works with a tree on the outskirts of the village. The tree agrees to protect the village in return for certain offerings. After the shaman dies the tree continues the protection and the village continues the offerings. To all intents and purposes the tree is now a god and will, by most anthropologists be regarded as such.

I’d categorize a deity or god as any spirit/being that is regarded by anyone as such – Allah, Jehova, Artemis, Isis etc. etc. Plus a great many whose names we don’t still know. It’s more to do with how we regard them than anything particular about them.

When you say "It's how we regard them than anything particular about them", do you mean what is projected onto them?

When you say "Plus a great many more whose names we don't still know." How do have you come by the knowledge that they exist?

We are in a cycle of lives and deaths, learning as we go, until we reach a stage at which we can leave this cycle and start the next. It is on the next cycle that our spirit guides and teachers reside, still learning, eventually to reach the next cycle, then the next, and so on. They have teachers who are on the cycle above them. Some of the gods/deities reside there as well. Indeed, some gods are teachers. (Four of my spirit teachers are generally regarded as gods.) In a sense we create these positions by our needs and wants. My teachers describe it as ‘job descriptions’ – our thoughts create a space and a spirit fills it.

What determines when we can leave one cycle and go onto the next (I'm presuming that to move up a level is seen as progression)? Have you said that shamanism has the Upper, Middle and Lower Planes (worlds?) - you seem to have described more than 3 cycles - is the word cycle interchangeable with Plane? If so, do the 3 Planes have mezzanine levels ( 😀 ( I'm not being sarcastic, these grins are a bit too aggressive.))?

The four of your spirit teachers who are generally regarded as gods - what are their names, would I have heard of them?

When you say "our thought create a space and spirit fills it." - is that because a thought is a departure from 'the whole' ?

Other gods are nature spirits. Imagine yourself in a culture where the shaman works with a tree on the outskirts of the village. The tree agrees to protect the village in return for certain offerings. After the shaman dies the tree continues the protection and the village continues the offerings. To all intents and purposes the tree is now a god and will, by most anthropologists be regarded as such.

In what does the tree protect the village - I'm expecting that (like most people) the villager would like protection from any form suffering? And, again I'm presuming that their isn't a village which is free from illness, death, perceived interlopers etc.

When you say "It's how we regard them than anything particular about them", do you mean what is projected onto them?

In a way. If something is regarded as a god, then it’s a god. If we (humans), with our praying and making of offerings, create a job vacancy for a god, then whatever fills that vacancy will be a god.

When you say "Plus a great many more whose names we don't still know." How do have you come by the knowledge that they exist?

There must certainly be many that I’ve never heard of. Not to mention the ‘unknown god’ of the Athenians that St.Paul mentions (in Acts17:22-31)

What determines when we can leave one cycle and go onto the next (I'm presuming that to move up a level is seen as progression)? Have you said that shamanism has the Upper, Middle and Lower Planes (worlds?) - you seem to have described more than 3 cycles - is the word cycle interchangeable with Plane? If so, do the 3 Planes have mezzanine levels ( ( I'm not being sarcastic, these grins are a bit too aggressive.))?

We go to the next cycle when we have learned/developed enough to fit in/cope with it (when we’re ready). The Three Worlds are not the same. Three levels (often sub-divided. Norse belief has 9 worlds, on three levels) are found in almost all shamanic cultures and many mythologies that have developed from shamanism. (I say ‘many’ here because I’ve never come across one that doesn’t, but I’m willing to accept that I don’t know of 100% of shamanic cultures. There are still hundreds left around the world.) Mezzanine levels? From my experience, yes. And anterooms.

The four of your spirit teachers who are generally regarded as gods - what are their names, would I have heard of them?

Two are Norse, two Chinese.

When you say "our thought create a space and spirit fills it." - is that because a thought is a departure from 'the whole' ?

Not sure I understand this.

In what does the tree protect the village - I'm expecting that (like most people) the villager would like protection from any form suffering? And, again I'm presuming that their isn't a village which is free from illness, death, perceived interlopers etc.

Anything that is outside the remit of the shaman (and what that is depends on the shaman). Once the shaman is gone, who knows? Hong Kong is in this situation at the moment – spirits that the last generation made offerings to and honoured are now being ignored because such behaviour ‘isn’t modern’. So things that were kept out no longer are. Not so much illness and death, but ghosts bringing ill luck, certainly.

When you say "our thought create a space and spirit fills it." - is that because a thought is a departure from 'the whole' ?

Not sure I understand this.

I was thinking back to [url]my conversation[/url] with Steve (and Paul) the other day, Steve said that we have free will, but when we use use it we mentally separate ourselves from the flow of Spirit/oneness.

Although Steve was using the word Spirit in a different sense to yourself Crowan (it seems to me), I wondered if when you said "our thought creates a space and spirit fill it" that the very thought would be enough to take a person away from wholeness (like Paul says, and I do actually know and understand, we are already whole, the inner conflicts take us away from that) - create a duality (as it were) and, in Shamanistic terms cause Soul and/or Power loss and possibly set up the opportunity for an intrusion?

Anything that is outside the remit of the shaman (and what that is depends on the shaman). Once the shaman is gone, who knows? Hong Kong is in this situation at the moment – spirits that the last generation made offerings to and honoured are now being ignored because such behaviour ‘isn’t modern’.

Are there any signs that shamanism will regain any strength in Hong Kong?

So things that were kept out no longer are. Not so much illness and death, but ghosts bringing ill luck, certainly.

What form would the ill luck take?

I was thinking back to [url]my conversation[/url] with Steve (and Paul) the other day, Steve said that we have free will, but when we use use it we mentally separate ourselves from the flow of Spirit/oneness.

Although Steve was using the word Spirit in a different sense to yourself Crowan (it seems to me), I wondered if when you said "our thought creates a space and spirit fill it" that the very thought would be enough to take a person away from wholeness (like Paul says, and I do actually know and understand, we are already whole, the inner conflicts take us away from that) - create a duality (as it were) and, in Shamanistic terms cause Soul and/or Power loss and possibly set up the opportunity for an intrusion?

It may seem a small point, but I would never say “and spirit will fill it”. What I said was, “and a spirit will fill it”. The two are very different.

I also understand that there is wholeness of which we are a part. All is connected. However, there are those on the forum (for example, Paul) who, in spite of acknowledging that, as humans we operate in separateness, thinks that this is not necessary. I disagree. When we were first beginning to be human, we were not separate in any sense. Not separate from animals, nor from spirits, nor from each other. We had no more sense of self than an (undomesticated) animal does. Then humans began to see themselves as separate, as ‘me’ and ‘you’, as ‘us’ and ‘them’. My spirit friends call this ‘humanity’s first soul loss’.
Without this, we could be completely whole. However, nor would we learn. I am happy to accept that not everyone is on a learning path (and maybe Paul is one), but I am as are many of my friends and teachers in this reality and in the spirit worlds. We learn – slowly, but well – as we go through many cycles of lives until we reach whatever is the end.
So yes, separateness can cause soul loss. But we are alive, here, and therefore separateness, although in many ways an illusion, is necessary.

Are there any signs that shamanism will regain any strength in Hong Kong?

I can’t see how.

What form would the ill luck take?

Last time I was in Hong Kong I dealt with this problem for a young man and his family. He was ill, his son was ill. He had lost his job. His wife was beset with nightmares and fears.

It may seem a small point, but I would never say “and spirit will fill it”. What I said was, “and a spirit will fill it”. The two are very different.

I may have mis-quoted you Crowan, but what I had in mind was your original text:

In a sense we create these positions by our needs and wants. My teachers describe it as ‘job descriptions’ – our thoughts create a space and a spirit fills it.

I'm not sure about:

I also understand that there is wholeness of which we are a part. All is connected. However, there are those on the forum (for example, Paul) who, in spite of acknowledging that, as humans we operate in separateness, thinks that this is not necessary. I disagree.

What is that you think is not necessary?

Also, I'm noticing that, earlier, you said:

So things that were kept out no longer are. Not so much illness and death, but ghosts bringing ill luck, certainly.

and later on your saying that the ill luck was experienced:

Last time I was in Hong Kong I dealt with this problem for a young man and his family. He was ill, his son was ill. He had lost his job. His wife was beset with nightmares and fears.

.... as him being ill; his son being ill.

Are there any signs that shamanism will regain any strength in Hong Kong?

I can’t see how.

So, that's it then Hong Kong will from this point onwards be beset by ill luck, because "spirits that the last generation made offerings to and honoured are now being ignored"?

What is that you think is not necessary?

When I said,

. All is connected. However, there are those on the forum (for example, Paul) who, in spite of acknowledging that, as humans we operate in separateness, thinks that this is not necessary. I disagree.

I meant that I see a necessity in separateness, through which we learn. Paul (I hope I’m being true to previous comments of his), not believing that we need to learn anything, does not think that separateness is necessary.

So, that's it then Hong Kong will from this point onwards be beset by ill luck, because "spirits that the last generation made offerings to and honoured are now being ignored"?

As much as anywhere else is.

You asked,

Are there any signs that shamanism will regain any strength in Hong Kong?

and I replied,

I can’t see how.

This maybe gives the wrong impression. Although there are many minority people of China who are shamanic, the Han (and therefore most people in Hong Kong) have not been shamanic since at least the end of the Manchus (and even then, it was the religion of the conquering elite, not the mainstream population). But what was widespread, even ten years ago, was daily offerings to the ancestor spirits and Earth Gods. The Door Gods kept peoples doorways safe. Banyan trees all over Hong Kong had shrines amongst their roots. In ten years it has all gone. In China these things were banned. Now the bans have been lifted and the old ways are creeping back. But in Hong Kong they fell out of use because they are seen as old fashioned.

Hi Crowan,

I was about to respond to your post, only the questions are getting more Shamanism orientated, again - off topic.

I won't be around tomorrow, so will pick it up over on the Shamanism forum, either on Thursday or Friday, if that's alright with you .

Hi Crowan,

I was about to respond to your post, only the questions are getting more Shamanism orientated, again - off topic.

I won't be around tomorrow, so will pick it up over on the Shamanism forum, either on Thursday or Friday, if that's alright with you .

That's a good idea. See you over there.:)

True Silence is Deafening

Hmn... Maybe? You could try it and let us know how it works out in 44 years.....

Expectantly Yours 😀

Tempting, but it's already been done. 🙂

Imho your mistake, NICE_1, was to post a small section of Meher Baba's words from God Speaks.

This in turn allows others to to focus on an even smaller part and over-intellectualise in the forum merry-go-round, and suck you in along the way.

I prefer to just give my personal opinion;

Imho it's the only book in the mbs/spirituality sphere truly worth reading.

It explains how the universe came into being, how it functions, and God.

and then to leave it up to the reader to choose what this wish to do with this information.

It used to be very difficult to get hold of a copy -- I purchased mine 13 years ago from Watkins Books -- whereas nowadays you can download a copy in pdf format for free from the Trust (AMBPPCT).

Wikipedia, even, has a decent synopsis of God Speaks.

Jai Meher Baba

Originally Posted by WildStrawberry [url][/url]
Hmn... Maybe? You could try it and let us know how it works out in 44 years.....

Expectantly Yours 😀

Tempting, but it's already been done. 🙂

Done by Meher Baba, not you, Haven't you said elsewhere on the forums that we are all unique.

And you were surmising about Meher Baba observing silence for 44years:

Wow! Tangent.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why Meher Baba observed silence for 44 years.

🙂

"Maybe"

"one of the reasons"

- so if you prefer to give your personal opinion:

I prefer to just give my personal opinion;

- what is behind the maybe and the other reasons.

?

Done by Meher Baba, not you, Haven't you said elsewhere on the forums that we are all unique.

And you were surmising about Meher Baba observing silence for 44years:

"Maybe"

"one of the reasons"

- so if you prefer to give your personal opinion:

- what is behind the maybe and the other reasons.

...?

...?

?:D