God Speaks . . .

Well, over on the To be Free thread, Paul was using the What Is phrase... you were saying there's [url]judgement involved in all perception[/url]. Remember:

3 men each having a different take on to what is God .

1. God is love
2. God is Man
3. God just is .

So, I wondered what has changed, with you, since then and caused you to adopt the "what is" phrase. When your 'motto' seems to be "God Is Love"

Ah yes I get you and you are right . To say what is _ is derives through a judgement that one has ascerained that what is is what is _ is (lol) .

I have also maintained that when one percieves one's perception is made up from judgement and it is impossible to speak of anything self related that excludes judgement .

I am happy to be in judgement when I speak of my experiences had there is no other way .

To be free of judgement one would remain silent and one would not pay any attention to what one perceives in any shape or form .

Even to notice the sun in the sky one has ascertained the shape, the colour, the amount of heat that it emits in that moment .. and so forth .. All that is ascertained through judgement .

Is it possible to notice something without noticing that one has noticed .

x dazzle x

I see that you can express a state of realisation without words but I think that what lies within the words can only be a partial explanation or description of it, or a pointing towards it.

Absolutely mouse and many that have realized self like meher baba has will say as much .

It can seem very contradictory in a way but what I like as a way of explaining this is what lies behind the meaning of jacobs ladder .

The first rungs of the ladder perhaps represents a foot hold in the material / physical world that contains one's desires and the mind sets are of the emotions and the intellect .

The higher rungs of the ladder perhaps represent the mind where one has detached from the material as explained and one has realized and become one with what they are .

One cannot remain forever at the bottom and one cannot remain forever at the top whilst experiencing human form for many reasons but when one goes up so to speak one comes back down to a degree and when one has come down they have integrated what has been realized above into one's expression down below .

What is contradictory is that one expresses through outlets of the material and such likes as judgement through usage of the written word and by means of functioning with the intellectual mind in order to bring forward what is beyond it . (lol) .

x dazzle x

Ah yes I get you and you are right . To say what is _ is derives through a judgement that one has ascerained that what is is what is _ is (lol) .

I have also maintained that when one percieves one's perception is made up from judgement and it is impossible to speak of anything self related that excludes judgement .

I am happy to be in judgement when I speak of my experiences had there is no other way .

To be free of judgement one would remain silent and one would not pay any attention to what one perceives in any shape or form .

Even to notice the sun in the sky one has ascertained the shape, the colour, the amount of heat that it emits in that moment .. and so forth .. All that is ascertained through judgement .

Is it possible to notice something without noticing that one has noticed .

x dazzle x

Daz,

Whenever I speak to you I get the impression that you're trying to teach me something - I don't remember asking you to be my teacher. If I wanted to be taught anything I would ask directly.

Whatever experiences you've had (re "realizations had" etc) - they're gone. To me you pick up everyone else's words (sponge-like) - repeat them, play them back and spout-off about them as if they're your own words to start with.... just an impression.

Daz,

Whenever I speak to you I get the impression that you're trying to teach me something - I don't remember asking you to be my teacher. If I wanted to be taught anything I would ask directly.

Whatever experiences you've had (re "realizations had" etc) - they're gone. To me you pick up everyone else's words (sponge-like) - repeat them, play them back and spout-off about them as if they're your own words to start with.... just an impression.

Hi W.S.

You asked me a question and I gave you an answer .

What you make of what is contained within my answers is down to how you evaluate what is contained within them .

I can learn something from a bird that sits innocently chirping on a trees branch _ is the bird a teacher _ Is the bird teaching with intention .

I say not .

just for the record where is in my answer an element of me teaching you something . My answer to you derives from explaining how I see things in relation to my understandings .

x dazzle x

Daz,

Whenever I speak to you I get the impression that you're trying to teach me something - I don't remember asking you to be my teacher. If I wanted to be taught anything I would ask directly.

In fairness, any discussion is a means of teaching each other or re-enforcing teachings we already know, otherwise it's not a discussion and we're not taking part.

To avoid being taught by others, one has to avoid discussion with others. 😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

I don't remember asking you to be my teacher.

If I wanted to be taught anything I would ask directly.

I don't remember offering you any teachings . :p

Is this the same W.S. that used ways and means to nudge me by saying this but actually meant something else . It was I that asked you to be direct and say what you mean 😉

x dazzle x

Absolutely mouse and many that have realized self like meher baba has will say as much .

It can seem very contradictory in a way but what I like as a way of explaining this is what lies behind the meaning of jacobs ladder .

The first rungs of the ladder perhaps represents a foot hold in the material / physical world that contains one's desires and the mind sets are of the emotions and the intellect .

The higher rungs of the ladder perhaps represent the mind where one has detached from the material as explained and one has realized and become one with what they are .

One cannot remain forever at the bottom and one cannot remain forever at the top whilst experiencing human form for many reasons but when one goes up so to speak one comes back down to a degree and when one has come down they have integrated what has been realized above into one's expression down below .

What is contradictory is that one expresses through outlets of the material and such likes as judgement through usage of the written word and by means of functioning with the intellectual mind in order to bring forward what is beyond it . (lol) .

x dazzle x

Yes, can see what you mean. At the end of day, thinking about your last paragraph, the words get in the way! 🙂

Is this the same W.S. that used ways and means to nudge me by saying this but actually meant something else . It was I that asked you to be direct and say what you mean😉

[This is going nowhere..... ] You can ask me to do anything you like, but it doesn't mean I'm going to obey - I could ask you to develop some insight:

Or perhaps, another way to put it would be to say to you:

What you make of what is contained within my answers is down to how you evaluate what is contained within them .

Hi W.S.

You asked me a question and I gave you an answer .

What you make of what is contained within my answers is down to how you evaluate what is contained within them .

I can learn something from a bird that sits innocently chirping on a trees branch _ is the bird a teacher _ Is the bird teaching with intention .

I say not .

just for the record where is in my answer an element of me teaching you something . My answer to you derives from explaining how I see things in relation to my understandings .

x dazzle x

Let's just forgot this shall we.... I could respond to this, but I know what you'd say... it goes nowhere.

In fairness, any discussion is a means of teaching each other or re-enforcing teachings we already know, otherwise it's not a discussion and we're not taking part.

To avoid being taught by others, one has to avoid discussion with others. 😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Good point, I'll take from this an exercise in self control: In future - not to get involved :D.

Let's just forgot this shall we.... I could respond to this, but I know what you'd say... it goes nowhere.

See the thing is W.S. the last time we interacted you kinda said the same thing . You asked me something and said one thing while meaning another and I pulled you up on that just to make things clear .

You again interact with me and I answer your question in relation to my understandings and we get to the point where we say lets forget again .

In my eyes there is nothing disrespectful or contradictory in my replies to you and I am not trying to teach you to suck eggs (lol) .

I am still non the wiser as to why you get to the same point of saying lets forget it . .

What is so wrong that is contained within my answer to your question that warrants this .

All that was contained within my answer which was partly in agreement to what you had said was how difficult or impossible it is to perceive without judgement . .

In fact you don't reply in regards to what was said in the reply but just choose to condemn what you 'think' is my expression behind my chosen words which is in fact a million miles apart from what my expression contains .

Now why is that?

x daz x

Let's just forgot this shall we.... I could respond to this, but I know what you'd say... it goes nowhere.

Where do you WANT it to go?

Where do you WANT it to go?

Thanks for asking, I wanted (past tense), a direct answer to a question - but they are very hard to come by - so I'm going to give up (Yeeeeeeeeehaaaawwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - I feel relieved!). Same thing happens when Paul is asked a question.

Thanks for asking, I wanted (past tense), a direct answer to a question - but they are very hard to come by - so I'm going to give up (Yeeeeeeeeehaaaawwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - I feel relieved!). Same thing happens when Paul is asked a question.

Well... I've gone back and read the thread between yourself and Daz as few times now cos I'm perceiving that something isn't right, but I can't quite put my finger on it.... :022:

All I can see is that you asked Daz why he was now using the "What is" phrase as you saw that as somewhat contradictory to his previous stance on the other thread. Once Daz understood what you were asking he replied to give an answer stating that, in my interpretation, conversation can only happen when we use judgement or perhaps a better word is discernment. I didn't perceive that Daz was trying to "teach" you something in the sense of telling you that you had to do something as an order, but your subsequent replies seem to suggest that you read it like that and that you felt he hadn't answered your question.

So what's going wrong here? Is the question unanswered? Is the answer given not the expected answer for the question? or is the question not worded in a way to be understood to provide the answer that would satisfy? :confused:

All in all, I don't think Daz is trying to avoid answering your question WS, as I thought it had been answered myself. Perhaps if you can clarify exactly what the question was we can clear things up? 😮

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Well... I've gone back and read the thread between yourself and Daz as few times now cos I'm perceiving that something isn't right, but I can't quite put my finger on it.... :022:

All I can see is that you asked Daz why he was now using the "What is" phrase as you saw that as somewhat contradictory to his previous stance on the other thread. Once Daz understood what you were asking he replied to give an answer stating that, in my interpretation, conversation can only happen when we use judgement or perhaps a better word is discernment. I didn't perceive that Daz was trying to "teach" you something in the sense of telling you that you had to do something as an order, but your subsequent replies seem to suggest that you read it like that and that you felt he hadn't answered your question.

So what's going wrong here? Is the question unanswered? Is the answer given not the expected answer for the question? or is the question not worded in a way to be understood to provide the answer that would satisfy? :confused:

All in all, I don't think Daz is trying to avoid answering your question WS, as I thought it had been answered myself. Perhaps if you can clarify exactly what the question was we can clear things up? 😮

All Love and Reiki Hugs

With all due respect , Giles. I was speaking to daz - I appreciate that you are probably trying to help... but, as I said - I'm giving up on this. So in response to your above post:

No, I wasn't seeing contradictions I was seen change (no "good" or "bad" value attached to that) - The crucial part of my question, to me, was "what has changed with you"

Hmn, I see you're using the "what is" phrase, daz. What's changed with you since the "[url]To be Free[/url]" discussion?

I reiterated the same later on:

Well, over on the To be Free thread, Paul was using the What Is phrase... you were saying there's [url]judgement involved in all perception[/url]. Remember:

3 men each having a different take on to what is God .

1. God is love
2. God is Man
3. God just is .

So, I wondered what has changed, with you, since then and caused you to adopt the "what is" phrase. When your 'motto' seems to be "God Is Love"

Now, I really am going to leave this alone - as an exercise in my own self control.

The reason I am only interested in direct answers is because, at the time of asking a question I can clairvoyant see the point/division in a persons' energy matrix - and if they respond directly (at the time that I ask) and directly answer the question - then I can dissolve the split in their consciousness for them (at that juncture - the point of division). Which was what was happening way back in the "suffering" thread - with both daz (which daz saw as me challenging him) and cactuschris. But it has to be a direct answer - spontaneous and not forced, or it doesn't work - so if daz answers now, it just wouldn't work.

- That is the best I can explain what has been going on without getting knotted up with my own frustration - frustration because of my own attachments - I said the same thing back in the suffering thread.

So, I leave it at this ;). Cheers!

No, I wasn't seeing contradictions I was seen change (no "good" or "bad" value attached to that) - The crucial part of my question, to me, was "what has changed with you"

!

Nothing has changed with me W.S.

Your initial question asked reffered that I had a change of view from one thread to another which is incorrect .

I have maintained that one cannot exclude judgement if one said that God was Love, God just is and whatever .

I answered your question in relation that question and gave my understandings of such .

In regards to challenging people who claim to be self realized in the sufferings thread came from your mouth .

It was I that said no need to challenge me or anybody W.S. just spit it out and ask whatevers on your mind . Conversations thereafter then went round and round in circles when you admitted that your style of questioning towards me was because you wanted to ascertain whether or not we are on the same page and yet again I asked you that there is NO need to be that way just be open and speak to me with what's on your mind .

Every time I have been open to converse with you W.S. and all I hear is blah blah blah I haven't the energy to or I can't be bothered to explain and yet YOU ask me the questions doh!!

Sometimes you even say that if you speak about this or that anymore you will throw up and you seem to get irritated if people ask you what you mean!!

And yes this an observation made that derives from judgement 🙂 but I like to be clear on what one accuses me of doing when I am actually not .

x dazzle x

Well... I've gone back and read the thread between yourself and Daz as few times now cos I'm perceiving that something isn't right, but I can't quite put my finger on it.... :022:

All I can see is that you asked Daz why he was now using the "What is" phrase as you saw that as somewhat contradictory to his previous stance on the other thread. Once Daz understood what you were asking he replied to give an answer stating that, in my interpretation, conversation can only happen when we use judgement or perhaps a better word is discernment. I didn't perceive that Daz was trying to "teach" you something in the sense of telling you that you had to do something as an order, but your subsequent replies seem to suggest that you read it like that and that you felt he hadn't answered your question.

So what's going wrong here? Is the question unanswered? Is the answer given not the expected answer for the question? or is the question not worded in a way to be understood to provide the answer that would satisfy? :confused:

All in all, I don't think Daz is trying to avoid answering your question WS, as I thought it had been answered myself. Perhaps if you can clarify exactly what the question was we can clear things up? 😮

All Love and Reiki Hugs

I can see that you are being unbaised and sound in your judgement made Giles . It is nice to get anothers perspective at times although I know my own intentions and they are honourable even in our massively long and ongoing debates that I have with you and Paul in particular .

I can disagree at times with you and Paul all day long and I don't feel anything of your expressions that have an attitude that implies anything other than mutual respect and to a degree an enjoyment had in participating in such debates .

In regards to your thought on teaching within a post I agree with your thoughts .

If I wanted to converse with Crowan on shamanism I would expect to hear an answer that contains Crowans overall experience and knowledge that relates to shamanism .

If I speak with Caroline N in regards to health and nutrition I would expect the same .

For some reason when an Individual speaks of one's self realizations a bad smell can enter the room for some reason .

x dazzle x

Nothing has changed with me W.S.

Your initial question asked reffered that I had a change of view from one thread to another which is incorrect .

I have maintained that one cannot exclude judgement if one said that God was Love, God just is and whatever .

I answered your question in relation that question and gave my understandings of such .

In regards to challenging people who claim to be self realized in the sufferings thread came from your mouth .

It was I that said no need to challenge me or anybody W.S. just spit it out and ask whatevers on your mind . Conversations thereafter then went round and round in circles when you admitted that your style of questioning towards me was because you wanted to ascertain whether or not we are on the same page and yet again I asked you that there is NO need to be that way just be open and speak to me with what's on your mind .

Every time I have been open to converse with you W.S. and all I hear is blah blah blah I haven't the energy to or I can't be bothered to explain and yet YOU ask me the questions doh!!

Sometimes you even say that if you speak about this or that anymore you will throw up and you seem to get irritated if people ask you what you mean!!

And yes this an observation made that derives from judgement 🙂 but I like to be clear on what one accuses me of doing when I am actually not .

x dazzle x

See ya mate - I am so glad that my attachment to all this is going.. going.... [almost] GONE!

I reapeat: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhaw!! What a relief :).

ALL THE BEST;)

What a relief :).

And possibly not just for WS.

Another discussion hits the buffers.....

Meher Baba kept Silence for 44 Years

Wow! Tangent.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why Meher Baba observed silence for 44 years.

🙂

Wow! Tangent.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why Meher Baba observed silence for 44 years.

🙂

Hmn... Maybe? You could try it and let us know how it works out in 44 years.....

Expectantly Yours 😀

Wow! Tangent.

In some forums you might have made a good point, but tangents in philosophy often lead to other interesting discussions. You may keep silence for as many years as you wish. Don't expect the rest of us to do so.

So Confused

OK, here is my take as an atheist or perhaps trench Christian.

My hobby is astro physics and don’t even start on quarks as it’s not related to this forum.

Humanity is vanity and our perception of where we are in the pecking order cannot currently be determined ergo we haven’t got a clue. The very thought that we are the dominant race in this galaxy, using current physics, would place us well down the list mentally and technologically.

I am possibly going to get it in the neck here but my perception of god is a space of comfort for any individual in which way they choose to get that comfort. A god is potentially a life form more advanced than us and if you study Greek philosophy it is pretty much the same story.

I sort of think there is a god but it is more about evolvement than spiritual (but not sure).

I apologise if this is out of turn but it is where my head is at.

Humanity is vanity and our perception of where we are in the pecking order cannot currently be determined ergo we haven’t got a clue. The very thought that we are the dominant race in this galaxy, using current physics, would place us well down the list mentally and technologically.

We haven’t a clue whether or not there is a pecking order. I would say not, since that suggests one imposed from ‘above’ and I don’t believe that there is an ‘above’.

I am possibly going to get it in the neck here but my perception of god is a space of comfort for any individual in which way they choose to get that comfort. A god is potentially a life form more advanced than us and if you study Greek philosophy it is pretty much the same story.

I’m not sure I understand you here. You seem to be saying that individuals choose to take comfort in an individual idea of a god, but also (I don’t understand the ‘potentially’) this god is more advanced. These don’t seem to match.

I sort of think there is a god but it is more about evolvement than spiritual (but not sure).

If you mean these ‘advanced life forms’ are ‘more evolved’ that doesn’t make sense. Evolution doesn’t have a value system. There is no ‘more’ or ‘less’.

I apologise if this is out of turn but it is where my head is at.

Of course not, we all have different views and we can all express them. I too have an interest in the sciences, and I understand what you're saying, as I also have an understanding that God is not necessarily the conventional "other being" that dominates and looks down on us (speaking as an atheist myself) hehe. I also have an interest in other philosophies and beliefs and see a lot of crossover in them all, if they are looked at from the right angle. 😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

I also have an interest in other philosophies and beliefs and see a lot of crossover in them all, if they are looked at from the right angle. 😉

All of them?

All of them?

Perhaps not so literally.

Perhaps not so literally.

Yes, I do have a tendency to take things literally.:) I do know that the understandings of deities and gods that I have reached through shamanism is very different from that expressed by others. This tends to lead to differences in philosophy and beliefs.

I do know that the understandings of deities and gods that I have reached through shamanism is very different from that expressed by others. This tends to lead to differences in philosophy and beliefs.

Hi Crowan,

What is your understanding of deities and gods reached through shamanism? How are you categorizing deities? How are you categorizing gods?

How does your understanding of deities and gods differ from the understanding of deities and gods expressed by others?