Living in the Now has a beguiling pull to it, however it is not all it seems from my experiences. I have been look at why this is.
Certainly there are a number of advocates of this way of being, yet when I look I see not the open, horizonless spaces, instead I see the benefits enclosed within barriers and boundaries. The devotees of the Now do not see these, they suppose that the space is limitless, encompassing all, but they allow themselves to be blinded by their zest into seeing only what they wish was the case.
The trouble is that living in the now forces an exclusion of aspects that do not fit well. We cannot live in the past, but that does not mean that that we cannot get benefit from ‘reliving the past’ – yet this is excluded. We cannot predict the future but that does not mean that we should not prepare for it – yet this is seen as worthless and is excluded. We are complex beings and should not deny ourselves the richness of our past or of looking forwards to the future.
Take for instance a formula 1 driver, sitting in his car waiting for the race to start – is he living in the now? Not at all, he will be once he sets off, but for now he is reliving the past (laps) and seeing where he will be in the laps to come. He works with the past and the future in order to become better at his job, better able to operate in the now when he needs to.
Actually even those who claim to live in the now understand the need to plan – they compose shopping lists, fill the car with fuel before it runs out and clean their teeth to stop decay later in life. They strive to somehow remain in the now while having to deal with things that drag them out of it.
Now living in the now is seen by many as enlightenment, as some kind of step forwards – yet this is not necessarily the case. Along with living in the now often comes a sense of joy or perhaps bliss, this is highly attractive and many would say that if one can have this then why have anything else, why have the issues and problems that come with not living in the now? Seems a valid argument. That is until one changes the words to reflect perhaps what a heroin addict would say, they would use the same argument if they were offered unlimited access to heroin. It is much what a child would say if offered only sweets and crisps rather than a balanced diet that included fruit and vegetables.
So what possibly could be the reason to not live only in the Now, what possibly could be the benefits?
Firstly let’s look at the example of the heroin addict – for many of the same circumstances apply. Given the access to unlimited supplies of heroin they will spend all their time high, this creates an isolationist state, a state where only the addict matters, and others are of no consequence. The same can be said about living in the now, the focus moves only to activities that are self-serving, while one marvels at the wonder of the Now others are excluded, the sense of total connection to the universe and all in it is internalised, it is real only to the person experiencing the Now, just as the marvellous hallucinations and sense of peace are real only to the heroin addict – outsiders cannot see them and are not part of them.
The heroin addict has no worry about the future, they will allow themselves to grow thin from not eating, from not planning their future health, they will not worry about servicing many of the things that need servicing just to live in this world. Those living in the now advocate exactly this – pensions planning for an old age retirement are of no consequence because the they may never grow old, insurance is only purchased when required by law, because the need to claim may never arise – deal only with what is here now, do not worry about the future for it cannot be predicted.
The heroin addict (actually I have never taken heroin or any other addictive stuff so I write about my perceptions of it all), has no need of the past – it is gone and issues from it can be discarded, only the next fix matters they dip out of the now only to get it all ready for injecting the next shot, and the same is true of those in the now, the past is gone and has no relevance other than memories in the Now. In both cases behaviour is not governed by care for others, it does not allow for compassion or love, only the self is important, for that is the nature of the trip or the now – it is self-serving.
Now some might say that animals live in the now, they understand about dealing with what is here now and needs dealing with. Yes they do ‘squirrel’ away food for winter, but that is not really planning for the future – well…perhaps – it does seem to be mostly instinctive. The problem with this kind of argument is that it assumes that we are just animals.
Something happened to humans a long time ago that altered this, we became able to review the past, relive it and retell it, we became able to predict with varying degrees of accuracy the future, and to respond to the statistical probabilities and risks involved of that future. This is apparent from as far back as when cave paintings were first produced. The paintings were used as stories to relive the past and record it so that others might also relive it in the future. The paintings were done as a part of planning for the future, they were used as a way of preparing for the next hunt, they were even used as a way of insuring against spiritual attack by being used as wards. These people were different to the animals, they had achieved the means to see images and understand them, and they had learned to plan for things that were not threatening in the now. They collected healing herbs for ailments that would arrive when winter came, this was a means of insurance. They were often faced with problems of the now and had to deal with them, but they also gained the ability to relive and recount the past, they learned to foretell, however accurately, the future and to prepare for it. They became spiritually aware, as well as aware of the now and the past and future. They became humans rather than animals – they developed a thinking mind and they were able to synergise new concepts by reliving the past, existing in the now and visualising the future. Our cave painings of today are books and films, photos and heirlooms, and yes, even religious relics and amulets.
This is not something that we just discard because we suddenly have access to the ‘unlimited supply of heroin’. It is a part of us that is important, it has survival relevance, and it has developmental relevance. When we understand this we stop behaving like a child and become mature. By living only in the now one creates barriers that exclude these abilities that we have that differentiate us from the other animals, the barriers work selfishly to exclude that part of us that many describe as the mind, and yet this is a valid element of who we are, by denying it a share of our being we effectively kill who we are and reduce our capacity to become who we can be. That chattering mind that is so often distracting and that many seek to still has a legitimate place in our existence so long as it remains in balance with all the other aspects of our intricate being and if we just exclude it by devising barriers than we are reducing the possibilities of developing fully.
So don’t get me wrong I think there is a need for both, actually for all aspects of ourselves – the barriers that the now creates are selfish and protect only a part of us, excluding all the other parts of who we are in favour only of the now, this no better than denying the now completely. We are a complex balance of complex parts, and it is only when we are balanced that we have the opportunity to develop fully into who we can be.
love
chris
Hi Dazzle,
Interesting comments about sleep, I do agree that some part(s) of us remain aware and ‘off doing other things’, however there is a recognised state that we call sleep - from the freedictionary:
“A natural periodic state of rest for the mind and body, in which the eyes usually close and consciousness is completely or partially lost, so that there is a decrease in bodily movement and responsiveness to external stimuli. During sleep the brain in humans and other mammals undergoes a characteristic cycle of brain-wave activity that includes intervals of dreaming.”. – now while this does not exactly address your wording I think it is a valid viewpoint.
The issue at least partly here is that we do ‘sleep’ and we do ‘dream’, we do not do it in the now as it were, the dreams are not ‘right there in front of us’ like a physically tangible item, and the process of sleep does at least remove our attention from what is going around us (and animals as well of course). If the mind should be stilled as being distractive from being in the now, what then of the process of sleep (as described above). Why should one who lives in the now ever have the need to sleep (as described above) as part of the process of living in the now?
love
chris
Hi Chris .
Lol - If It’s In the freedictionary It must be true . . ha haha . Two points to that Chris I would say that needs addressing .
1. consciousness is completely or partially lost .
Nope . Where can we lose consciousness (except from beyond mind where I feel that It Isn’t present) but still Isn’t lost just absent . What we are conscious of at times just Isn’t remembered but yet subconsciously there the memories will remain . Everything (as In) all thoughts / actions made Is recorded - Nothing Is lost .
2. During sleep the brain in humans and other mammals undergoes a characteristic cycle of brain-wave activity that includes intervals of dreaming .
Firstly the brain Is an aspect of the mind just as everything Is within our created universe . Some make references to the brain and the mind being separate entities but the brain Is of the mind .
Everything Is Interconnected whilst what we are Is In experience of physicality . The brain can make sense of what our minds can become consciously aware of via our senses . If our physical Interaction within the boundaries of the earth plane Is no more (as In when our spirit Is absent from the flesh) our brain activity decreases and Is put on standby (lol) until the moment our spirit returns . This standby mode Is what you are refering to as a sleeping state .
The issue at least partly here is that we do ‘sleep’ and we do ‘dream’, we do not do it in the now as it were, the dreams are not ‘right there in front of us’ like a physically tangible item, and the process of sleep does at least remove our attention from what is going around us (and animals as well of course). If the mind should be stilled as being distractive from being in the now, what then of the process of sleep (as described above). Why should one who lives in the now ever have the need to sleep (as described above) as part of the process of living in the now?
Aha - You are making the connection and bridging the gap between the now moment and what we are aware of In the moment . Our subconscious mind Is a part of the now moment although we are not conscious of what’s contained within It .
Therefore whatever happens within our so called sleep state Is very much a part of the now . Just because we do not remember being conscious In the sleep state doesn’t mean that whatever has occurred Isn’t as real or not real as any other conscious state .
Some will say that our awakened conscious state “Is the dream” or is an illusion . And none of this Is real - so where does this put your now moment (lol) Certain realizations bring about an awareness that this Is so . Anything of the flesh Isn’t real .
So are you sure chris that you are not dreaming “right now” . 🙂
Some would say ‘that is just silly’ (quote from the thread) – but I think that this kind of response is made because there is no really valid response available. We sleep (as described above) as part of being human/animal, it is a process that is part of who we are, or do those who live in the now never sleep? We plan ahead when we will sleep, plan for when we will not be conscious of living in the now.
Sleep (as described above) has a valuable part in our lives to play (in fact in can be fatal to not have it), so just like other facets of our existence we need it to fully achieve all that we can be. Yet it is not relevant in the now.
This is the difference between spirit and the totality that we actually are in human form.
We all live In the now and no-one sleeps . What we are aware of and what we are conscious of will differ from one Individual to another and will reflect what we are consciously aware of within the now .
I remember at times what I do when I am conscious of other realms when my body rests . So what sleeps again??
x daz x
My comments about the spiritualists was that they gave healing for free, I still see that, I have not known them charge or make any obligation demands about beliefs or any other aspects – it was you that said they did – “You argue that spiritual churches do not charge, yet from my own experience I disagree, as there are people there who do have ego, and do expect you to believe in spirit in the way they do, and those expectations require you to pay in terms of belief”. They do not charge for healing – unless you know otherwise – I have never even heard them ask for a donation.
This might help to clarify this point for you Chris
Payment
Many healers work from home or in churches or clinics and only work part-time, they often don’t charge a fee and will accept a donation only. Other healers work full time and sometimes do house visits and they charge a fee anything from £15.00-£25.00 depending on the time spent treating the patient. If you are in difficult circumstances or having financial problems it is always a good idea to discuss this with the healer as she or he may be willing to give healing on a donation only basis.
from a member of the NFSH website [url]Spiritual Healing at The Doncaster Clinic. Spiritual healer registered with the National Federation of Spiritual Healers for over twenty years.[/url]
Working for a set fee which is negotiable, or setting the fee according to what someone feels you are worth paying as a donation for healing, is still working for a fee, the NFSH is a registered charity which runs upon the fees and donations that people pay their members to become healed.
Hi Dazzle,
Interesting comments about sleep, I do agree that some part(s) of us remain aware and ‘off doing other things’, however there is a recognised state that we call sleep - from the freedictionary:
“A natural periodic state of rest for the mind and body, in which the eyes usually close and consciousness is completely or partially lost, so that there is a decrease in bodily movement and responsiveness to external stimuli. During sleep the brain in humans and other mammals undergoes a characteristic cycle of brain-wave activity that includes intervals of dreaming.”. – now while this does not exactly address your wording I think it is a valid viewpoint.
The issue at least partly here is that we do ‘sleep’ and we do ‘dream’, we do not do it in the now as it were, the dreams are not ‘right there in front of us’ like a physically tangible item, and the process of sleep does at least remove our attention from what is going around us (and animals as well of course).
What a strange idea. So you are saying that if you are asleep and a noise occurs in the room, you won't be aware of it because sleep has removed our attention (awareness) from what is going on around us?
If the mind should be stilled as being distractive from being in the now, what then of the process of sleep (as described above). Why should one who lives in the now ever have the need to sleep (as described above) as part of the process of living in the now?
Hasn't that already been answered? The physical body and mind need sleep to regenerate.
Some would say ‘that is just silly’ (quote from the thread) – but I think that this kind of response is made because there is no really valid response available. We sleep (as described above) as part of being human/animal, it is a process that is part of who we are, or do those who live in the now never sleep?
Where on Earth are you getting this idea that those living in the Now do not need to sleep? You appear to be putting 2 and 2 together and getting -17.
We plan ahead when we will sleep, plan for when we will not be conscious of living in the now.
Physical conciousness and our awareness are different things. It would appear that you are saying they are the same, so when we sleep and the physical consciousness 'dissappears', then any awareness also dissappears. That's not right.
Sleep (as described above) has a valuable part in our lives to play (in fact in can be fatal to not have it), so just like other facets of our existence we need it to fully achieve all that we can be. Yet it is not relevant in the now.
How you've come to such a conclusion I don't know. Of course sleep is needed, I'm sure we'll all agree with that, but you have determined that it's not relavant in the now... well, you've just made that up.
Hi Giles,
Actually the words of ‘stilling the mind’ came from Paul.
Yes, they did, but the misinterpretation of those words came from yourself. You took the words to literally mean that the activity of the mind stopped, and that's not the case.
I know that the activity level of the mind can be slowed but never ‘stilled’. We are constantly aware of what the mind is doing, our focus on it changes depending what the rest of us is doing.
For a lot of people they're not 'aware' of what their mind is doing. They let their minds take control and they believe they are living in a world of ideas that their mind creates. This is what distracts them from what is really going on around them as per their senses.
When we actively decide to change (and perhaps reduce) that focus this is done by effectively erecting some kind of barrier – something to set aside what you call attachment perhaps.
You might see it as erecting a barrier, but that to me implies that you put up a barrier so you cannot see what the mind is doing. That is not the same as recognising what the mind is doing and being aware of it for what it is. This is perhaps why you see these barriers whereas I don't. You appear to believe that living in the Now is excluding the mind, but it's not, it's being aware of the mind.
“Have you missed the part (yet again) where I said I do have practical experience of this myself and the examples I gave?” – perhaps – do you mean you were one of the people who decided that 10 pounds was too cheap? Someone decided that this group had that viewpoint – I am not sure how that realisation was arrived at.
Erm... no. I meant the one where I have had my own clients who didn't want to receive treatment for free but insisted upon paying.
“Really? So you believe that all people love unconditionally?” – no – the web that is comprised of connections has many faces, however I do not see that it is a currency, something to be bartered for and exchanged like pound coins, within our existence there is always give and take, this is part of the balance, but the use of the word currency forces it to be an exchange by definition, and at a proscribed rate, and this is not what I see.
That seems a very limited viewpoint of exchange, especially if you believe it is always balanced. There are many people out there who seek to take for their own controlling purposes, and it can be very much taking without giving, just as there are those who do give unconditionally.
I give healing without any claim on the client, no currency, no obligation, no demands and no expectations,
Except they must be a family or friend first. You do expect that of them, as you said yourself.
I do see that spending time with them often dealing with aspects of their lives that they would often not share otherwise does bring about a closer relationship, but this is not part of any expectation or payment. To simply see our connections to others in life as a series od currency exchanges is simply mercenary – and expecting dues is very centric. As I said, Paul’s comment was clear.
No, your understanding it your way is clear to you. You are turning it into an "expectation" of currency, but that is pre-judging the motives of a person whom you do not know. Paul may have an unconditional expectation that there will be some sort of exchange, but that is simply from recognising that we all give and take to an extent and many people do have an expectation to have to give when they receive something. It's not about only giving something if you get something in return, but holding back on that giving if you're not going to get anything. One does no presuppose the other.
My comments about the spiritualists was that they gave healing for free, I still see that, I have not known them charge or make any obligation demands about beliefs or any other aspects – it was you that said they did
No, it was me who said that some of those I have know did, after you had stated as if fact that all spiritualists give healing for free. You expanded my answer to be inclusive of the whole church, and I was simply correcting. Just because those you have known do not charge doesn't mean that applies to them all. I'm glad the ones you know are freely giving, that's great, and it's a shame it's not all, but that's the nature of some people. As Paul correctly points out, there are some very obvious charges made by some.
I use the example of the sun’s rays because it is such a good example – for instance, what you see, what you call the sun, is not what other people see, and what they call the sun, and this provides the prime example of a centric stance. In the same way what you see is just a person, there is no reason for you, from your centric stance to see anything other than that, (unless they ask I suppose).
As I said waaaaaaay back (was it on the other thread?), you can be completely pedantic about that example, and you've taken that pedanticism by the horns completely. Yes, the light hitting my eyes is not the same light as hitting someone else's eyes and yet we both call it the Sun, but what should we do, just ignore it and not give it a name? In that respect, yes it's centric, but you could be completely pedantic and say that applies to everything for every person and we are all completely centric in that sense. But that will serve to prove nothing, and certainly is no point of argument against living in the now. When you have spoken of those living in the now as being 'centric' previously you have put it forward as if they are being selfish in some way or excluding others. The two concepts are contradictory. You are either saying that those living in the now are centric in a selfish fashion because they are excluding, or you are saying that the centric view is the solipsistic principle that can be applied to all people whether living in the now or not, but you cannot apply the latter principle as an example of proving the first.
“If you're going to use such arguments then you need to prove how something can actually really exist in the past and not in the present moment.” – actually the recent experiments on particles going faster than light (still to be confirmed I agree) are about to demonstrate that.
It still doesn't prove anything, because such principles of faster than light particles (tachyons) are purely theoretical. Even if a measurement shows prove of a particle having travelled faster than light, the 'past' or 'future' principles of that particle still cannot be observed in the present moment to prove the existence of past or future, it can only be theoretically extrapolated from those results. There's a long way for science to go before it could prove anything like that, assuming it ever could.
Recent work on the constant called ‘Alpha’ that forms part of the E=MC2 has also been shown not to be constant, and this too allows for the past to be accessible. I would also be interested in knowing your definition of ‘moment’, for it can be a specific point in time (ie of zero length) or of some length is seems (lol).
Fair question. It obviously depends on the context in which I use the word as with anyone. Even when talking of living in the Now, we could talk about the Now being an individual zero point moment in time, but we can also recognise that we have physical limitations due to our senses and time for our physicality to act on such things, so the moment is as small as is physically possible, but of course recognised as being a lenght of time. Typically though we're not talking of the now in such scientific terms (after all we're in the philosophy forum, not the scientific forum :)) but rather referring to being in the Now as reaching a state of awareness such that truth is recognised in all things, including what the mind is doing, rather than letting the mind create things that we believe to be true in this moment (however big you want that moment to last).
However – that is just physics, in terms of the sun if what you see is only the light of the sun, then given your “something to exist it has to exist in this present moment in time” then what you are seeing does not exist. Whast you see is the past image of it.
Absolutely. The light of the sun reaching my eyes is the sun as I know it now. Who can know any different. The source of that light may have ceased to exists but we wouldn't know it until the light ceases. As you say, it's just physics.
There is a difference between the now and the now that an individual perceives. The individual is part of the whole that is the now, just as a kidney is part of a body, not separate, yet if the individual only sees from their own point of view then they behave in a centric manner. If one was not centric then one would see not only the person in front of one, but because of the non-centric view one would also see them as a mother.
Of course, this centric view is the solipsism principle. If you're referring to centric in terms that do not imply selfishness but that rather imply selflessness then that is certainly someone living in the now, but if you are assuming that such a centric view is selfish then that is not what living in the now is about.
This whole mother thing just continually makes your now even more centric, you see that there is no need to do other than see her as a person, yet that may not be her experience, you relate only to your moment, yet she is experiencing a different moment,
Nope, she's in exactly the same moment as I am. Unless of course you know that there are two "time lines" going on seperate from each other.
you deal only with your needs unless she raises the request for something different.
No, you're assuming selfishness again. It's not a case of it being "your needs" it's the needs of the moment, which is all inclusive of everyone involved in that moment. Stop trying to seperate it as being selfishly only for the purpose of the person living in the now and you may be able to see the selflessness and inclusiveness of all.
It is all from the self aspect. It is no use claiming that this is different and all inclusive, how else would you know that she had aspects other than the help desk person if she did not decide to tell you, and yet this kind of consideration is part of what makes society so great, it is actually what leads many to be healers. Perhaps, being ignored for fear of attachment your mind might just have been telling you this – it is one of the things the mind is good at.
Of course she will have other aspects (or personalities) to exhibit. Everyone has many personalities. A single person can take on the personality of being "mother", "daughter", "carer", "assasin", "office worker" or anything else. If there is a need to recognise those in that moment, then they will be recognised. If one were to try and recognise all different personalities a person can take on in any one moment, then they would be distracted from the need of the moment and we just wouldn't get anything done. You are choosing to see the need in the present moment as something negative when in fact it's for the benefit of everyone involved.
“Sleep is a necessary function of the physical body” – actually this is not the case, sleep is not about resting, even hibernation does not take the place of sleep.
That sounds different from what you were saying to Dazzle above. In that case, perhaps you can go for a walk and see how long you can carry on walking without sleep to regenerate your muscles.
Even so if sleep is a necessary function then why are other functions that are just as natural and integrated, such as the mind seen differently?
The mind is a tool. It allows us to recall skills and the things necessary to do what we need to do right now. It can however also bring up memories of the past and create fears for the future, and we can actually believe we are living in that past or that the fear we have is something existing right in front of us now, because we become attached to it. This attachment puts up barriers that prevents you from being aware of what is outside of the mind (such as when you daydream, and someone is trying to get your attention but you don't hear them) and that is limiting your true potential to meet the needs that are right in front of you.
It's not a case of asking why the mind is seen differently from sleep. How can you compare the two? They are two different things. Sleep has it's function, as does the mind, as does the heart, kidneys, and our awareness etc.
All Love and Reiki Hugs
Hi Dazzle,
Yes – the freedictionary lol – but one has to start somewhere, words are important and the way in which they are used is as well, for this is how we communicate when we are not ‘in person’.
I think that they are using the ‘more technical’ term for consciousness, as in ‘awake and conscious’, however the fact that it is absent does not mean it is in some way ‘not active’, simply that it is not ‘in sight’ to the observer. The memories are a bit the same, for we have ‘physical’ memories that are lodged in the brain tissue and others that are part of our energy bodies (the first is well proven especially with short term memory experiments, the second much more open to ‘doubt’).
“Firstly the brain Is an aspect of the mind just as everything Is within our created universe” – I’m not sure about this –actually both parts, what evidence is there that the brain is an aspect of mind? And especially whether we have created out universe with mind. Can you please explain. You see I agree that we are interconnected, but I’m not sure that these ‘parts’, like brain and mind, consciousness and whatever are necessarily needed to be parts of each other.
“If our physical Interaction within the boundaries of the earth plane Is no more (as In when our spirit Is absent from the flesh) our brain activity decreases and Is put on standby (lol) until the moment our spirit returns . This standby mode Is what you are refering to as a sleeping state .” Is the spirit what some would call consciousness?
The now moment is not just an ‘I exist now so this is a I exist in the now’ – of course everything that exists is part of the time based existence that we experience in this universe. That does not allow any extrapolation however to other states. Does the spirit exist in the now? Well this is not clear – it can interface with our existence here – and we can, if we choose, step into the ‘now’ experience, but that does not mean that the spirit or consciousness exists within the now. The same can be said of when we sleep, we can, while awake experience the now moment, but if our attention is absent (we are asleep), then what part of us is present to live in the now moment? These kind of claims need to have some kind of justification – you are right to ask what is real, and are we perhaps dreaming of our existence here, these are difficult if not impossible to prove one way or the other, but to claim that the sleep state is part of the now does need expanding as to what and why. It is not enough simply to make statements that cannot be proved or justified in the hope that they will make sense – this renders them into wishes.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for that – I have never seen anyone charge at the church for healing, in fact those that go for the healing have commented on it. Perhaps just like private clairvoyant sessions there are some who choose to charge.
love
chris
Hi Dazzle,
Hi Chris .
Yes – the freedictionary lol – but one has to start somewhere, words are important and the way in which they are used is as well, for this is how we communicate when we are not ‘in person’.
I think that they are using the ‘more technical’ term for consciousness, as in ‘awake and conscious’, however the fact that it is absent does not mean it is in some way ‘not active’, simply that it is not ‘in sight’ to the observer. The memories are a bit the same, for we have ‘physical’ memories that are lodged in the brain tissue and others that are part of our energy bodies (the first is well proven especially with short term memory experiments, the second much more open to ‘doubt’).
The point that you need to understand chris before you can cotton on to what I am saying and In respect to which that I have highlighted Is that when the spirit Is absent from the flesh / mind body the spirit Is the vehicle for the observer to observe . We no longer Interact with our brain and with our physical senses In order to carry on being consciously aware . You are attaching the observer through the eyes of the physical . The physical Is just a shell . The spirit Is just a shell . The causal light body Is just a shell . The observer Is formless . The observer chooses form In order to experience and observe through many different eyes . When you digest that you will understand your multidimensional aspect of the self In the now . You do not loose sight of anything . You do not lose consciousness . People In comas do not lose consciousness they just have disengaged physical conscious Interaction .
“Firstly the brain Is an aspect of the mind just as everything Is within our created universe” – I’m not sure about this –actually both parts, what evidence is there that the brain is an aspect of mind? And especially whether we have created out universe with mind. Can you please explain. You see I agree that we are interconnected, but I’m not sure that these ‘parts’, like brain and mind, consciousness and whatever are necessarily needed to be parts of each other.
Whatever exists within our mindful created universe Is of the mind . The flesh, the spirit, the atom, the easter bunny etc . The brain Is not excluded from the mind . Nothing Is . The evidence of that Is within the realization of the God-self . You cannot find the evidence of such whilst using the Intellect / brain that Is a part of the mind . I have mentioned In the what Is real thread that we have to go beyond the ordinary mind In order for realizations to come to the fore otherwise It’s like the ego mind trying get rid of the Influence of the ego . (lol) It’s not In the ego’s Interest to dissolve It’s self because It wants to survive . The ordinary mind-sets that many have want to keep one’s attention / focus on the desires of the flesh etc, . You cannot realize the God-self when there Is conscious thought on the material .
The now moment is not just an ‘I exist now so this is a I exist in the now’ – of course everything that exists is part of the time based existence that we experience in this universe. That does not allow any extrapolation however to other states. Does the spirit exist in the now? Well this is not clear – it can interface with our existence here – and we can, if we choose, step into the ‘now’ experience, but that does not mean that the spirit or consciousness exists within the now. The same can be said of when we sleep, we can, while awake experience the now moment, but if our attention is absent (we are asleep), then what part of us is present to live in the now moment? These kind of claims need to have some kind of justification – you are right to ask what is real, and are we perhaps dreaming of our existence here, these are difficult if not impossible to prove one way or the other, but to claim that the sleep state is part of the now does need expanding as to what and why. It is not enough simply to make statements that cannot be proved or justified in the hope that they will make sense – this renders them into wishes.
The thing Is chris I do hear what you are saying and I understand as to why you question what I say . Albert Einstein quote Is bang on the money so to speak “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it. You must learn to see the world anew.”
That’s why I said to Giles “You need to shut your eyes to this world In order to see clearly” You cannot use the ordinary mind-body-consciousness to understand realities that are beyond comprehension .
x dazzle x
Hi Giles,
“What a strange idea. So you are saying that if you are asleep and a noise occurs in the room, you won't be aware of it because sleep has removed our attention (awareness) from what is going on around us?” – at some level yes – that is why people sleep through fires and (for instance) others coming to bed. I do agree with Dazzle though that this is not at all levels, but sleep can make us ‘unaware’ of these noises and disturbance.
“Hasn't that already been answered? The physical body and mind need sleep to regenerate.” – not really – it is not whether that is a fact – we agree it is, but why should one ‘leave the now’ to do this?
“well, you've just made that up” – derived it, not made up.
Actually it also came from you “Perhaps they are just stilling their minds” “we attempt to still the internal arguments”, while I think this was Paul’s comment “switch off your thinking mind and the background chatter, go deep within yourself and find the place of complete stillness”. So between stilling and switching off the idea seems clear.
“That seems a very limited viewpoint of exchange, especially if you believe it is always balanced. There are many people out there who seek to take for their own controlling purposes, and it can be very much taking without giving, just as there are those who do give unconditionally.” – if the exchange is currency then that must be the translation, however in terms of energy and relationships the balance is by balancing the web of connections, some pay things forward to others, and if some think that they can take without giving they will discover their error at some stage, nature demands balance, eventually it will be so.
“Except they must be a family or friend first. You do expect that of them, as you said yourself” – yes – this is my practical answer to the problem of limited available resource – it os not entirely something I am comfortable with, especially when I have to say no to someone, but it is the best I can manage.
The currency quote was clear “a currency is anything which we agree to exchange, it can be cash or work in kind which create a balance within the exchange, or we could use the currency of the attachments of love, friendship or simply do it to accrue good karma for ourselves in future lives” – I did not misread it. “Paul may have an unconditional expectation that there will be some sort of exchange” – actually it is conditional.
Ha- Paul has found spiritualists advertising for a fee – I have not seen this at their services but obviously some may do given the quote he found.
“such principles of faster than light particles (tachyons) are purely theoretical “ – actually they are not theoretical if the experiment is correct – they are empirical. What it means is that the past can exist in the future – ok at a small level I agree, but this is the beginning. The fact that some particles/waves change their behaviour if we observe them allows people to think (wish) that they can manipulate the universe – this at least is more mathematically based.
Thanks for the (reasonable) attempt at defining the moment in the now, interesting, I am not certain whether it is a concept of the mind, or a scientific measurement, probably the first for each time one tries to define it mathematically it slips away.
“Unless of course you know that there are two "time lines" going on seperate from each other.” – actually this is partly my point – they may look to be the same from an outside observer’s point of view, but each person is running along their own (centric) version of the now – and the observer ads another line. This is why what you see is not what I see when we observe the same person, you see a worker, I see the mother as well, but the difference arises because of this centric view. Now the view becomes selfish when one only cares about oneself within one’s centric position, it is not a given, but I think that how we see others is a good indicator.
You still do not see the difference do you “A single person can take on the personality of being "mother", "daughter"” - this is the example – one does not take on being a mother, or daughter etc, while one may take on being a “worker”. This is the indicator. The danger is that you may get distracted from the needs of your moment – and assume it is for the “the benefit of everyone involved”.
“perhaps you can go for a walk and see how long you can carry on walking without sleep to regenerate your muscles” – resting can regenerate muscles, sleep does something different to the body and mind – for instance in some forms of sleep the muscles are actually exercised.
“The mind is a tool” – nope – the mind is an integral part of us and who we are – you have chosen to see it as such. “that is limiting your true potential to meet the needs that are right in front of you” – yes this is true, but the needs of what is right in front of you are not the only needs, they are only a portion of what we need.
love
chris
Hi Giles,
“What a strange idea. So you are saying that if you are asleep and a noise occurs in the room, you won't be aware of it because sleep has removed our attention (awareness) from what is going on around us?” – at some level yes – that is why people sleep through fires and (for instance) others coming to bed.
Fires are often not heard until it's too late to get away, or the fumes have already reached us and prevent us from physically waking. Not a good example to use methinks. As for others coming to bed, that comes down to familiarity. You are aware of others coming to bed, but the amount it brings you out of your sleep is very minimal, because you have recognition of what it is and no need to awake, whereas e.g. a slight creaking sound from downstairs that you haven't heard before can make you come straight out of sleep. The awareness is always there, otherwise there would be points in your sleep where a person simply couldn't be woken.
“Hasn't that already been answered? The physical body and mind need sleep to regenerate.” – not really – it is not whether that is a fact – we agree it is, but why should one ‘leave the now’ to do this?
We don't "leave the now". How can you?
“well, you've just made that up” – derived it, not made up.
I fail to see how you derived that sleep wasn't relevant in the now. Nobody else has said it's not relevant and you've provided no other evidence to back it up.
Actually it also came from you “Perhaps they are just stilling their minds” “we attempt to still the internal arguments”, while I think this was Paul’s comment “switch off your thinking mind and the background chatter, go deep within yourself and find the place of complete stillness”. So between stilling and switching off the idea seems clear.
So, we both said something early on, and when you repeated that back to us it was clear you had not understood it in the manner we wished it to be, so we have since clarified what we meant. But instead of taking on the clarification, you are continually choosing to remain with the original wording and your original misunderstanding of it. Well, that's your choice, but it's not what we meant, and if you choose to insist we meant otherwise then that simply indicates you are deliberately choosing to ignore our clarifications. There really does seem to be no point in trying to explain things to you if you hold on so rigidly to your initial interpretations.
“That seems a very limited viewpoint of exchange, especially if you believe it is always balanced. There are many people out there who seek to take for their own controlling purposes, and it can be very much taking without giving, just as there are those who do give unconditionally.” – if the exchange is currency then that must be the translation, however in terms of energy and relationships the balance is by balancing the web of connections, some pay things forward to others, and if some think that they can take without giving they will discover their error at some stage, nature demands balance, eventually it will be so.
What is currency? It's a piece of paper or a shaped piece of metal that only has a conceptual value. Pulp down the paper or melt down the metal to a blob and then see how much value people put on it and whether you can pay for things with it. The exchange is in the meaning behind what it is. You can't take currency and seperate it from other means of exchange as if it is completely disperate. Whether it is currency, love, friendship, a gift for a gift or whatever, these are all equally valid exchanges. Don't put boundaries around one thing and limit it.
“Except they must be a family or friend first. You do expect that of them, as you said yourself” – yes – this is my practical answer to the problem of limited available resource – it os not entirely something I am comfortable with, especially when I have to say no to someone, but it is the best I can manage.
But if you had the time and someone who wasn't a friend or family came to you and asked for healing, would you give it? Or would you say No because they are not friend or family?
The currency quote was clear “a currency is anything which we agree to exchange, it can be cash or work in kind which create a balance within the exchange, or we could use the currency of the attachments of love, friendship or simply do it to accrue good karma for ourselves in future lives” – I did not misread it. “Paul may have an unconditional expectation that there will be some sort of exchange” – actually it is conditional.
There is nothing in Pauls statement that shown an expectation. It states that there may be an agreement to exchange, but it doesn't place an expectation of exchange on anything.
Ha- Paul has found spiritualists advertising for a fee – I have not seen this at their services but obviously some may do given the quote he found.
Which simply proves that we cannot judge all who carry the same label by the same as we have experienced ourselves. :rolleyes:
“such principles of faster than light particles (tachyons) are purely theoretical “ – actually they are not theoretical if the experiment is correct – they are empirical. What it means is that the past can exist in the future – ok at a small level I agree, but this is the beginning. The fact that some particles/waves change their behaviour if we observe them allows people to think (wish) that they can manipulate the universe – this at least is more mathematically based.
No, the experiment would simply prove that somehting can travel faster than light. Only based on existing methematics does that theoretically imply that the past can exist, but if the limit of the speed of light is shown to be broken, then very readily those same mathematics that theoreticize about the past and future can also be wrong and would need reconsidering based on the new empirical data. It could be that if it is shown that we have something that can travel faster than light then all previous mathematics needs to be re-written to cater for this new understanding, but that doesn't mean that the past or future magically appears in the present moment.
Thanks for the (reasonable) attempt at defining the moment in the now, interesting, I am not certain whether it is a concept of the mind, or a scientific measurement, probably the first for each time one tries to define it mathematically it slips away.
Words... mathematics... all so limiting. Useful of course, but limiting. Will we ever be able to define the Now, or consciousness, or awareness etc. in words, maybe... maybe not. 🙂
“Unless of course you know that there are two "time lines" going on seperate from each other.” – actually this is partly my point – they may look to be the same from an outside observer’s point of view, but each person is running along their own (centric) version of the now – and the observer ads another line. This is why what you see is not what I see when we observe the same person, you see a worker, I see the mother as well, but the difference arises because of this centric view. Now the view becomes selfish when one only cares about oneself within one’s centric position, it is not a given, but I think that how we see others is a good indicator.
I'd disagree, judging a person by how they see others is not a good indicator of selfishness, only personal experience can show that. I could just as easily say something like... you seeing that person as a worker and a mother at the same time is negating the needs of the moment where they need to be a worker by distracting yourself by their mother aspect, thus selfishly meeting your own minds idea that they are a mother and excluding the need to be met by acting on what needs to be done with them as a worker. Can I make such a judgment... no, only you can do that yourself by recognising whether you are meeting all the needs or potential for that moment in time, or whether you are being distracted by the mind.
You still do not see the difference do you “A single person can take on the personality of being "mother", "daughter"” - this is the example – one does not take on being a mother, or daughter etc, while one may take on being a “worker”.
But there is no difference. These are what the "personality" refers to.
Additionally, in this lifetime you are a "mother", but in the next lifetime you may be a "son", so are you still a "mother"?
In a Buddhist concept, yet we are all each others mothers because, as they say, throughout our countless lives we have all been a mother to each other, and hence why they say you should be thankful to all people because they are your mother and have given you the precious gift of life in the human form to allow you to progress towards escape from samsara. (anyway I digress hehe! :D)
“perhaps you can go for a walk and see how long you can carry on walking without sleep to regenerate your muscles” – resting can regenerate muscles, sleep does something different to the body and mind – for instance in some forms of sleep the muscles are actually exercised.
Ok, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Stay awake and see how long you can keep a clear mind.
“The mind is a tool” – nope – the mind is an integral part of us and who we are – you have chosen to see it as such.
Are you able to observe your mind at work? Are you aware of your thoughts arising and going? Are you aware of the memories coming and going? Are you aware of the emotions being stirred up and dissipating? If you are observing these things you cannot Be them. Yes you are attached to these things, but it is not the mind that truly makes the "I" that we talk about when we say things like "I have a memory coming back to me". In a sense, yes the mind is an integral part of the whole, but the awareness that observes the mind can know the mind for what it is and use it, rather than letting it make us believe that we are the mind.
“that is limiting your true potential to meet the needs that are right in front of you” – yes this is true, but the needs of what is right in front of you are not the only needs, they are only a portion of what we need.
What are the other needs apart from what is right here and now?
All Love and Reiki Hugs
Hi Dazzle,
Yes – I do understand – there is always a part that is aware and active – but that is not the same as saying that that part is living in the now – you see Giles talks of ‘what is in front of one now’ and ‘at this moment’, and neither have the same meaning as when the body and mind are ‘not asleep’. So it was not about losing sight of anything – it was about living in the now.
In terms of the mindful created universe I have other concerns – for there is no evidence, except for wishfulness that we have created this universe, it sounds a grand thing to claim that our minds create this is all part of our god-self, but this I think raises us beyond our humble place in the universe. If you want to test this just try creating something with your mind, perhaps dinner, or an orange. This kind of creation is not within our scope, perhaps when (assuming we do) finally join with god, than as part of that we may be able to create an orange, or dinner (but by then there will be no need for it). This is part of being ‘constrained’ within this physical universe for this life – things change when we move on – the energy world opens up other possibilities amd we remember and reinforce our connections to God.
Going beyond the ordinary does not mean we have the right to claim God powers. It certainly does not give us the right to claim that we created the universe. Wishing will not make it so, no matter how many particles change their form if we observe them.
I do understand that there is much beyond our comprehension, but if you think that you have creator abilities then the challenge is to demonstrate them, even so by your reference if you can conceive them then they are within comprehension, and not beyond. We are a real mix of things, and each has its place, I see the now as a useful toll, a part of what we can experience and be, Giles sees the mind as a tool, but the now differently – each has its place.
love
chris
Hi Dazzle,
Yes – I do understand – there is always a part that is aware and active – but that is not the same as saying that that part is living in the now – you see Giles talks of ‘what is in front of one now’ and ‘at this moment’, and neither have the same meaning as when the body and mind are ‘not asleep’. So it was not about losing sight of anything – it was about living in the now.In terms of the mindful created universe I have other concerns – for there is no evidence, except for wishfulness that we have created this universe, it sounds a grand thing to claim that our minds create this is all part of our god-self, but this I think raises us beyond our humble place in the universe. If you want to test this just try creating something with your mind, perhaps dinner, or an orange. This kind of creation is not within our scope, perhaps when (assuming we do) finally join with god, than as part of that we may be able to create an orange, or dinner (but by then there will be no need for it). This is part of being ‘constrained’ within this physical universe for this life – things change when we move on – the energy world opens up other possibilities amd we remember and reinforce our connections to God.
Going beyond the ordinary does not mean we have the right to claim God powers. It certainly does not give us the right to claim that we created the universe. Wishing will not make it so, no matter how many particles change their form if we observe them.I do understand that there is much beyond our comprehension, but if you think that you have creator abilities then the challenge is to demonstrate them, even so by your reference if you can conceive them then they are within comprehension, and not beyond. We are a real mix of things, and each has its place, I see the now as a useful toll, a part of what we can experience and be, Giles sees the mind as a tool, but the now differently – each has its place.
love
chris
Hi Chris .
Yes – I do understand – there is always a part that is aware and active – but that is not the same as saying that that part is living in the now – you see Giles talks of ‘what is in front of one now’ and ‘at this moment’, and neither have the same meaning as when the body and mind are ‘not asleep’. So it was not about losing sight of anything – it was about living in the now.
Every multidimensional aspect of one’s self Is a part of the now . Only the now exists . Try not to get caught up with the now and to what one thinks of as the now as being what we are aware of In our time related now (They are not related) . If anyone has that understanding of the now being only time related In mind then they will never make the now connection . If one know’s thyself then they will know that what they are Isn’t governed by time and space and form .
In terms of the mindful created universe I have other concerns – for there is no evidence, except for wishfulness that we have created this universe, it sounds a grand thing to claim that our minds create this is all part of our god-self, but this I think raises us beyond our humble place in the universe. If you want to test this just try creating something with your mind, perhaps dinner, or an orange. This kind of creation is not within our scope, perhaps when (assuming we do) finally join with god, than as part of that we may be able to create an orange, or dinner (but by then there will be no need for it). This is part of being ‘constrained’ within this physical universe for this life – things change when we move on – the energy world opens up other possibilities amd we remember and reinforce our connections to God.
Going beyond the ordinary does not mean we have the right to claim God powers. It certainly does not give us the right to claim that we created the universe. Wishing will not make it so, no matter how many particles change their form if we observe them.
Yet again chris this all boils down to knowing thy self and then going beyond knowing . When you realize the self you realize that you are the creator and the created the painter and the painted the puppet and the puppet master . You realize the self’s creative potential . Fear doesn’t exist . Doubt doesn’t exist within the realization . There Is no-one thinking . The God-self Is no-one but everything . Like I have said you are looking / seeking to satisfy your Intellectual mind with evidence to support what can only be realized . If you stop thinking about trying to perhaps find answers where there are none you will eventually allow what Is to the fore . You cannot see what Is beyond the garden fence If you live In a ground floor flat . Try changing your vantage point .
I do understand that there is much beyond our comprehension, but if you think that you have creator abilities then the challenge is to demonstrate them, even so by your reference if you can conceive them then they are within comprehension, and not beyond. We are a real mix of things, and each has its place, I see the now as a useful toll, a part of what we can experience and be, Giles sees the mind as a tool, but the now differently – each has its place.
There are many ways to answer this chris . Firstly In respect to a challenge of sorts (lol) There Is nothing to prove . Challenges and proof only derives from a place of lack, or doubt or fear In some shape or form . The realization of one’s creative potential Is for the Individual self to know . A kung fu expert doesn’t need to beat up 100 men to know that he can do It . When I realized our true potential and (sat within the power) just an expression - The thought arises what shall I do with such power (I wasn’t actually thinking this) which Is hard to explain there was just a knowing just as to like an artist's creative energies that’s getting ready to draw on a blank canvas - but the overwhelming energy just allows things to be as they are - there Is no need to Intervene with what Is no matter how much sufferings are contained within our mindful creation .
I understood that doing nothing Is o.k. Doing nothing Is the right course of action / non action and yet there are no rights or wrongs (lol) .
I think many Individuals are tapping In to their potential In everyday life . The lightworkers the healers for example . They are using their minds to create, transform, manipulate light, energies, cells In places where light Is absent . Their work I would say defies the laws of physics and Is beyond comprehension .
x dazzle x
Hi Giles,
The ability to hear small noises downstairs differs from person to person, sleep mode to sleep mode and minute by minute. We do hear strange noises and rouse sometimes, but how do you know how many you do not rouse to? If dealing with the now is all about what is in front of you, then what of dreams, what of sleepwalking? How does dreaming deal with the now?
I asked how sleep is relevant to the now, not whether it is a natural function, the mind is a natural function but you ‘still’ it in order to best be in the now, why then is sleep different? Simply stating that we need sleep does not answer the question.
“Whether it is currency, love, friendship, a gift for a gift or whatever, these are all equally valid exchanges.” – this vision of love as a currency I think describes one of the less caring sides of living in the now. In a few days some of us will spend a small amount of time to remember those who have been killed in the war – this has no relevance in the now, it is not right in front of one, so presumably those in the now will eschew this, they will only see those people who are in front of them, and those only as people, not as sad mothers, worried fathers or concerned sons and daughters. The wall of logic that starts with “What are the other needs apart from what is right here and now?” erects boundaries and walls to keep out the caring part of humanity, it sees love as a currency, and friendship as something to be bartered in some way. It reduces other people to nothing more that something one has to interact with, preferably in the least connecting manner possible. If you cannot see what this does to people, stripping out what many call humanity, hardening the stance into a rigid doctrine, if you cannot see that these are walls and barriers deliberately erected then you are choosing to be blind to it all.
“But if you had the time and someone who wasn't a friend or family came to you and asked for healing, would you give it? Or would you say No because they are not friend or family?” – if I had the time I would help everyone I could.
“judging a person by how they see others is not a good indicator of selfishness” – I’m sure you do disagree, for those who you meet are no doubt a distraction from the needs of the now. If one only thinks of oneself, only from one’s own aspect – from Merriam-Webster “concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on
one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others”.
“in this lifetime you are a "mother", but in the next lifetime you may be a "son", so are you still a "mother"?” – of course – the state describes the connections, not a profession – this is the problem here – you see being a mother as if it is having a job – this is because the aspects of being connected to others distracts from ones immediate needs and negating the needs of the moment.
“Are you able to observe your mind at work? Are you aware of your thoughts arising and going? Are you aware of the memories coming and going? Are you aware of the emotions being stirred up and dissipating? If you are observing these things you cannot Be them. Yes you are attached to these things” – why yes – but I am not attached to them, they are part of me, they are an integral part of each of us, so we are not attached any more than a kidney is attached to us or us to it. One cannot be them because they are part of us. I do not believe I am the mind, the mind is a part of who I am.
“What are the other needs apart from what is right here and now?” Nothing – so long as one erects barriers to keep out love and connections to others, caring and compassion, family and friends, humanity and kindness – the repetition of logic will sustain you through avoiding all this – of course if you want a bit of love you can trade for it, if you want a friend you can buy one.
love
chris
.
Hi Giles,
The ability to hear small noises downstairs differs from person to person, sleep mode to sleep mode and minute by minute. We do hear strange noises and rouse sometimes, but how do you know how many you do not rouse to?
When others tell you that you did not awken to various noises, or when you rouse just enough to be aware, but let it go.
If dealing with the now is all about what is in front of you, then what of dreams, what of sleepwalking? How does dreaming deal with the now?
I asked how sleep is relevant to the now, not whether it is a natural function, the mind is a natural function but you ‘still’ it in order to best be in the now, why then is sleep different? Simply stating that we need sleep does not answer the question.
I fail to see how you are making this connection? What has the now got to do with sleep? You seem to be taking the "stilling of the mind" and equating that to sleep somehow. It's like comparing an apple to an antelope. they may both contain some similar letters in their spelling, but aside from that they are non-comparable.
I'm not sure what you are asking by "How does dreaming deal with the now?". Dreaming is activity of the mind.... it doesn't "deal with the now", it's just activity that is happening at that moment in time, and the awareness of the Now is aware of the dreaming as it happens.
“Whether it is currency, love, friendship, a gift for a gift or whatever, these are all equally valid exchanges.” – this vision of love as a currency I think describes one of the less caring sides of living in the now.
How have you connected the fact that some people give love conditionally with those who live in the now? Those who live in the now aim to give unconditionally, so you've got it the wrong way around. Please don't take words and make unfounded connections.
In a few days some of us will spend a small amount of time to remember those who have been killed in the war – this has no relevance in the now, it is not right in front of one, so presumably those in the now will eschew this, they will only see those people who are in front of them, and those only as people, not as sad mothers, worried fathers or concerned sons and daughters. The wall of logic that starts with “What are the other needs apart from what is right here and now?” erects boundaries and walls to keep out the caring part of humanity, it sees love as a currency, and friendship as something to be bartered in some way.
If there is a need to comfort a person who is in front of us because they are grieving for someone they have lost, then we would meet that need, unconditionally. It doesn't mean that it isn't recognised what happened in past wars and how people gave their lives to fight for their country, but would you expect, for example, a surgeon in the middle of performing emergency brain surgery, to stop what he is doing for a couple of minutes to remember those people? Meeting the needs of the moment isn't about being cold and heartless as you seem to be imposing based on your own ideas of what living in the now is about, it's about meeting the needs of the moment... if there's a need, it's met, unconditionally. This idea you have that there must be an expected exchange or bartering for selfish gain, is something you have created in your own ideas, and simply isn't the facts as to what living in the now is about. Believe it if you choose, but that's all it is... your belief.
It reduces other people to nothing more that something one has to interact with, preferably in the least connecting manner possible. If you cannot see what this does to people, stripping out what many call humanity, hardening the stance into a rigid doctrine, if you cannot see that these are walls and barriers deliberately erected then you are choosing to be blind to it all.
Meeting the need is about embracing everything that is needed in that moment. You are the one creating these imaginary boundaries and limits that you suggest we would have. Meeting the need is about including everything that is needed, and if that involves caring and giving love unconditionally then that is what is given. How you've concluded otherwise, is a mystery.
“But if you had the time and someone who wasn't a friend or family came to you and asked for healing, would you give it? Or would you say No because they are not friend or family?” – if I had the time I would help everyone I could.
So, you don't just treat friends and family. That's different from what you said before.
“judging a person by how they see others is not a good indicator of selfishness” – I’m sure you do disagree, for those who you meet are no doubt a distraction from the needs of the now.
:confused: A=B so C must equal F? This seems to be the sort of logic you are applying.
If I meet people, then they are a need in that moment. Why are you saying that I would exclude them? You are seeintg the needs in your selfish centric concept again. Perhaps you believe that I create the needs and decide what is needed? No, the needs are whatever is there in front of us at that time... no conditions, no exclusions, not distractions.
If one only thinks of oneself, only from one’s own aspect – from Merriam-Webster “concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on
one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others”.
Yes, but who is only thinking of themselves if they are living in the moment and meeting the needs of everything in front of them unconditionally.
You seem determined to imply that those living in the now are selfish, greedy, uncaring and excluding of others etc. You couldn't be more wrong.
“in this lifetime you are a "mother", but in the next lifetime you may be a "son", so are you still a "mother"?” – of course – the state describes the connections, not a profession – this is the problem here – you see being a mother as if it is having a job – this is because the aspects of being connected to others distracts from ones immediate needs and negating the needs of the moment.
See above.
“Are you able to observe your mind at work? Are you aware of your thoughts arising and going? Are you aware of the memories coming and going? Are you aware of the emotions being stirred up and dissipating? If you are observing these things you cannot Be them. Yes you are attached to these things” – why yes – but I am not attached to them, they are part of me, they are an integral part of each of us, so we are not attached any more than a kidney is attached to us or us to it.
A kidney is part of the physical body. The thoughts are a part of the mind. At some point all these attachments have to be let go of when they no longer serve their purpose, yet you believe that when a thought of the past arises, then rather than let it go again you should hold onto it and live that thought and memory as if it is really here now?
As already said, these things exist in mind and have purpose when the need arises, but to become attached to them in the moment such as to distract from the real needs of the moment serves no purpose. This is the type of attachment we are talking about, not the sort that you seem to consider it to be, which would be to detach all past memories as if they didn't exist in the mind at all.
“What are the other needs apart from what is right here and now?” Nothing – so long as one erects barriers to keep out love and connections to others, caring and compassion, family and friends, humanity and kindness – the repetition of logic will sustain you through avoiding all this – of course if you want a bit of love you can trade for it, if you want a friend you can buy one.
If you are going to throw insults at us based on your wrong beliefs of what living in the now is about, then I shall simply choose not to talk here any more. I have spent much time here offering my knowledge on the subject unconditionally as you chose to open this discussion and create a need for answers. You continually choose to take our words and twist them into things we haven't said based on your own mistaken ideas of who we are and what living in the now is about, and when we clarify what we have said, you ignore those clarifications. I could say more, but clearly there is no need as you choose to only listen to yourself and use words that do not show a person who is caring for others.
I wish you all the best in your search for the truth. :hug:
All Love and Reiki hugs
Hi Dazzle,
So you differentiate between the time based now and ‘the other one’. That is interesting as up until now it has been described as ‘a moment’ – which I think implies time based.
As far as the creator goes I have some reservations – for feeling that one can do something and actually being able to do it are different things altogether. “Doubt doesn’t exist within the realization” and I’m sure (know) that it feels like this, no question and that this is a true reflection of what is felt, but that does not make it real. The danger here is that some of the answers one appears to find are illusions. That is why I think that some form of proof, not just belief, is needed. You see I think that there is a god, and I think that creation is part of the remit of God, but I do not think that I am a god, and I do not think that God thinks I am a god, I am me.
“proof only derives from a place of lack, or doubt or fear” – yes – I agree, but the point of proof is to dispel that lack or doubt or fear. Proof is the thing that tries to differentiate the real from the illusory, the false claim form the true.
Doing nothing is often just the ticket if the conditions are right, doing something can be also just the ticket at the right time. Claiming that something can be done but refusing to do it can also be seen as a fear based response in case of failure. So long as one remains untested self doubt will always be there in the background.
“I think many Individuals are tapping In to their potential In everyday life . The lightworkers the healers for example . They are using their minds to create, transform, manipulate light, energies, cells In places where light Is absent . Their work I would say defies the laws of physics and Is beyond comprehension .” – I agree entirely, but they again and again, by healing energy, by invoking god’s powers or by a change in consciousness, demonstrate it, the proof is there or no one would bother going to a healer.
Hi Giles,
We each see different things, this is not a matter of twisting words, but the image and paradigm that the words describe.
Take for instance your question about whether I treat other people than just friends and family – I do not, I replied that I would if I had the time, but your response was “So, you don't just treat friends and family. That's different from what you said before.” - now this is just the way things are translated perhaps, it would be easy to see it as a twisting of words, but I’m not sure that is the case.
Now in the case of currency I quoted Paul’s comments and then yours – they may well not have been meant in the way they were written but what I see is that you both see love and friendship as some kind of currency – I do not. I have a view that seeing love and friendship as a currency changes them from caring to non-caring interactions – assuming they can be traded for lacks the gentle aspects of what they are.
“Meeting the needs of the moment isn't about being cold and heartless” – it need not be, but the cold logic that seems to drive it, the manner in which others are perceived, and the balance of one’s own needs against others can end up there. I’ve described it as centric, and this is also part of it I suppose.
“If I meet people, then they are a need in that moment” – this arose because you said you do not see a mother only a worker, if that is what you see then that is what you will deal with, how will you know whether the mother has issues?
“A kidney is part of the physical body. The thoughts are a part of the mind. At some point all these attachments have to be let go of when they no longer serve their purpose, yet you believe that when a thought of the past arises, then rather than let it go again you should hold onto it and live that thought and memory as if it is really here now?” - no – but the thoughts are part of the mind, and the mind is part of the person, there is no attachment between these – they are integrated not attached, one cannot just discard a kidney (well actually there is a backup lol), it is an integral part of the body, and so these other aspects of our self are part of us, I agree that each must be in balance for the person to achieve their best potential, but they are still part of us – in this I would include past experience, memories, what is in front of us now, and future aspirations and hopes.
love
chris
Hi Dazzle,
So you differentiate between the time based now and ‘the other one’. That is interesting as up until now it has been described as ‘a moment’ – which I think implies time based.
Hi Chris .
No-thing Is separated In mind Chris . The now encompasses everything within the universe . Not all planes and dimensions are governed by time and space . The now moment contains any moment In time or beyond time . The world of spirit (4th dimension) has no time . The world of spirit has a continuous day . . or for a better word a continual moment that Is not time related . When you or I enter a sleep state as you like to put It our multidimensional spirit body transcends one dimension to another and then becomes governed by the physics attributed or not attributed to that dimension . In that moment we are not governed by time or by anything that Is required to sustain physical life or whatever and yet It Is still a part of a continual now moment . Do you see . The now cannot be attributed to anyone thing - It Is everything . In one respect as no-thing Is separate within mind - What my spirit guide Is doing In the ether Is a part of the now moment because I am my guide and my guide Is also me .
As far as the creator goes I have some reservations – for feeling that one can do something and actually being able to do it are different things altogether. “Doubt doesn’t exist within the realization” and I’m sure (know) that it feels like this, no question and that this is a true reflection of what is felt, but that does not make it real.
Whilst you feel that you are separated from the creator chris you will not grasp our true potential . You cannot grasp what It’s like to bounce up and down on the moons surface unless you have done so . Paul and I have had a good discussion about various aspects of consciousness where the higher mind and the thinking mind will give / allow different evaluations as to what Is the self etc . You are coming from a thinking mind when anything Is spoken of In a way that separates you from what you are or self from self ..
The danger here is that some of the answers one appears to find are illusions. That is why I think that some form of proof, not just belief, is needed. You see I think that there is a god, and I think that creation is part of the remit of God, but I do not think that I am a god, and I do not think that God thinks I am a god, I am me.
God thinks . 🙂 Perhaps If God was a man and was functioning In or of the Intellectual aspect of mind then perhaps he may have an opinion as to whether Chris Is God also . he heheh .
When an Individual has a realization of what they are chris the realization allows us to reevaluate our entire perception In regards to what we previously thought about self and love and peace and fear etc . . Your right that some of these so called answers to our questions points out that what we previously thought to be real or to be true are just illusionary . That’s how the cookie crumbles . Some say searching for the self over many many lifetimes Is the dumbest thing ever to do because we cannot lose what Isn’t lost ha haha - but we have disengaged from the realization of what we are .
The journey, the search, the seeing through illusions Is what our life’s experience Is all about . Self enquire . Question . And keep questioning . Who Am I . Who’s thinking? Who’s doing? until the questions cease .
“proof only derives from a place of lack, or doubt or fear” – yes – I agree, but the point of proof is to dispel that lack or doubt or fear. Proof is the thing that tries to differentiate the real from the illusory, the false claim form the true.
Doing nothing is often just the ticket if the conditions are right, doing something can be also just the ticket at the right time. Claiming that something can be done but refusing to do it can also be seen as a fear based response in case of failure. So long as one remains untested self doubt will always be there in the background.
Proof is required to satisfy the Intellect and the skeptic . You will not find Proof where there Is none to be found . If you want proof that you are God chris let go of wanting to have proof . It’s the wanting to have proof that will keep you In mind-set where the realization of such (that you are god or whatever) Isn’t present . When anyone self enquires In the sense that It was designed for - It will only come about (the realization) If one truly yeans to know thyself and nothing else . No frills or flashing lights . No super powers . And no proof finding expedition to satisfy one’s curiosity .
x dazzle x
I agree entirely, but they again and again, by healing energy, by invoking god’s powers or by a change in consciousness, demonstrate it, the proof is there or no one would bother going to a healer.
Hi Chris .
Missed this one .. 😮
I think Chris in regards to healing an Individuals ailments (supposedly) your right that the proof Is In the pudding (lol) . The healer perhaps hasn’t a doubt In the world that he or she Is a channel for a divine source of energy and the patient has no doubt that the healing energy has eliminated her pains . So yes the proof Is there . 🙂
Now you (the healer) try proving to the masses that you can heal ailments . Now you (the patient) try proving to the masses that include the doubters and the medical world that divine light cured your ailments .
It’s not really about what others think about whether or not If the healer is genuine or If the patient was making It all up etc, etc . . It’s about what It means to the Individual . That’s what the realization of what you are Is all about Chris . It’s not about gathering proof for any tom **** or harry to mull over and give an opinion about (lol) .
Being Individual means that my realizations or whoevers realizations doesn’t allow / make another Individual realize what they are .
This realization malarkey process Is designed for each individual "only" to realize .
If one wants proof of what they are perhaps one should be prepared to dig a very big hole and start searching for the illusive white rabbit . 🙂
x dazzle x
Hi Dazzle,
I get what you are saying but disagree with parts for sure, however this topic is really important for everyone – for instance I do not think that the dimensions that contain spirit (what you call the 4th dimension) have no time, in fact my experiences in contacting and dealing with spirit suggest quite the opposite – however I do not think that time is a constant, or at least what we conceive as time. This then is the problem of the now moment for me – I see that you say it is not a time formed thing, I get that, but if
“You cannot grasp what It’s like to bounce up and down on the moons surface unless you have done so” – and this too I think is wrong if it is based on the expectation of being God, we were created by God, apart from a wish that we are God there is no support for this. Ultimately this universe was created by god, and we are part of it, and no matter how hard you wish that you are God, and have God powers it is a delusion created by your mind. You see if you are god, and you can create, as you say, then create something, otherwise it is a wishful figment of the imagination. Claiming that because you can create and so choose not to is a cop out, it is avoidance in order to maintain the illusion. This is at the heart of the issue about the bubble that is the now, it allows these illusions to be conceived and maintained by denying access to the test of actuality – it makes claims that cannot be proven as if they are fact but fails when challenged. I do see the now, and have experienced it, I evaluate what I see and sense without attachment, and this has troubled some on here, for instead of being blinded by grand claims I have been honest.
So here is the challenge – not that anyone claiming god powers will take it up, if you have creators rites, then create something, an orange will do.
“od thinks . Perhaps If God was a man and was functioning In or of the Intellectual aspect of mind then perhaps he may have an opinion as to whether Chris Is God also . he heheh .” – yes – god is a being, I believe he thinks, and I understand some of what he thinks of Chris – lol.
“Some say searching for the self over many many lifetimes Is the dumbest thing ever to do” – but this is not the point of our many lives, self is with us, it is our development and evolution that we seek to achieve. If one is only seeking one’s self then there are many who have already achieved it.
“Proof is required to satisfy the Intellect and the skeptic” – no – proof is required to satisfy oneself, I have not asked that you prove it to me, prove it to yourself, cast away the ‘belief’ for that is religiously based, if you think you have gods creator abilities then test it out. This is not so much a challenge as a confirmation, avoid it and the doubt and fear remain that it is delusional.
“You will not find Proof where there Is none to be found . If you want proof that you are God chris let go of wanting to have proof” – but if I fail to seek the proof, and continue to make the claims then that makes me a charlatan, I seek to know, not to assume, who I am, anyone can fool themselves, I choose not to.
I fully agree that the proof of healing (in the example you use) is not proof for others, it is about self, testing to discover actuality, discarding the wishful, setting aside the chance or expected, and finding the times when it has worked. This is what discernment is all about when contacting spirit, it allows the feedback that sets in place improvement. I have done this – and found the proof, evaluated the facts and discovered the evidence – I believe it works, and it was for me that I sought it.
love
chris
I get what you are saying but disagree with parts for sure, however this topic is really important for everyone – for instance I do not think that the dimensions that contain spirit (what you call the 4th dimension) have no time, in fact my experiences in contacting and dealing with spirit suggest quite the opposite – however I do not think that time is a constant, or at least what we conceive as time. This then is the problem of the now moment for me – I see that you say it is not a time formed thing, .
Hi Chris . .
Why would time exist In the spirit world chris . Time does not . It’s a man made (physical) creation . In the spirit realms there are no cycles of night and day there are no seasons of spring, summer, autumn, winter there are no physical laws etc, etc . . An Individual can pass over to the spirit world and 20 earth years can seem like 5 minutes . Try living on a desert Island for 30 years lol you won’t know what time It Is, day It Is (lol) not before too long you will have lost all sense of It . Try applying that scenario to a place of existence that has continuous daylight (that In not light from the sun as we know It) .
I get that, but if
“You cannot grasp what It’s like to bounce up and down on the moons surface unless you have done so” – and this too I think is wrong if it is based on the expectation of being God, we were created by God, apart from a wish that we are God there is no support for this. Ultimately this universe was created by god, and we are part of it, and no matter how hard you wish that you are God, and have God powers it is a delusion created by your mind.
Ha Ha Chris that made me chuckle . .:)
Of course the point being made In regards to the men bouncing on the moon Chris Is that anyone really has to try/experience something out for themselves In order to relate / resonate with whatever that experience might be that someone Is trying to convey to another be It the realization of what they are or as to what It’s like to fly In a plane .
You see if you are god, and you can create, as you say, then create something, otherwise it is a wishful figment of the imagination. Claiming that because you can create and so choose not to is a cop out, it is avoidance in order to maintain the illusion. This is at the heart of the issue about the bubble that is the now, it allows these illusions to be conceived and maintained by denying access to the test of actuality – it makes claims that cannot be proven as if they are fact but fails when challenged. I do see the now, and have experienced it, I evaluate what I see and sense without attachment, and this has troubled some on here, for instead of being blinded by grand claims I have been honest.
So here is the challenge – not that anyone claiming god powers will take it up, if you have creators rites, then create something, an orange will do.
I am chuckling again Chris . You are still coming across from a particular mind-set that Is actually blinding you . Firstly you need to understand that the God-realization Is beyond mind . You cannot be God-realized and remain God-realized within mind because you will lose Identification with the physical experience . It will be like Chris Is no more . It would be like Chris Is not conscious of Chris . You would not be able to function similar to Ramana who had to be hand fed etc . . Almost a state of being that disengages the spirit or the soul from the ordinary world .
Do you think Ramana will conjure up an orange to satisfy his skeptics whilst he has lost sight of the universe around him . doh!! . (lol) .
Oranges didn’t just appear as an fully grown developed orange that fell from the sky Chris and yet God created all . What makes you think God can produce an orange In the same way that you are Implying that God could . Of course God Is just another word that can be related to what we are .
What we are Is no-one .
“Proof is required to satisfy the Intellect and the skeptic” – no – proof is required to satisfy oneself, I have not asked that you prove it to me, prove it to yourself, cast away the ‘belief’ for that is religiously based, if you think you have gods creator abilities then test it out. This is not so much a challenge as a confirmation, avoid it and the doubt and fear remain that it is delusional.
Nope “The Self” doesn’t need / require proof Chris . . Only “Chris” needs proof and “Chris” Isn’t who or what the Self Is although nothing Is separated from Self . I do not need proof of what I have realized Chris . We all are the one . We are all the created and the creator . There’s no religious vibe going on here . When you realize what you are Chris you will see what you are presently not .
“You will not find Proof where there Is none to be found . If you want proof that you are God chris let go of wanting to have proof” – but if I fail to seek the proof, and continue to make the claims then that makes me a charlatan, I seek to know, not to assume, who I am, anyone can fool themselves, I choose not to.
There Is nothing wrong with seeking Chris but you are trying to look for the white rabbit because you have constrained your ability to find what can only be realized by searching for some kind of tangible proof / evidence that Is of the ordinary thinking mind . What you are cannot be realized where you are seeking “Do you see that - Chris” .
By the time Chris has transcended the ordinary mind there Is no longer a Chris that Is searching for anything .
The realization Is that what you have been looking for outside of your self so to speak has actually been present all along (lol) That’s why the search can be seen as a pointless journey for what you are looking for Is right in front of your nose . The hardest of things to find are within us or right In front of our noses ha ha hah .
x dazzle x
Hi Dazzle,
Interesting question about time existing in the spirit world, there is no answer as to why, but does it is a different question. Even in your question you seem to assume that it does exist but moves at a different rate (“An Individual can pass over to the spirit world and 20 earth years can seem like 5 minutes”) and I think this is at least in general correct. Working with spirit suggests that it does exist, at l3east that is what messages say, but it may well proceed at a different rate – or perceptions make it seem so. Seasons and days and nights are a function of a tilted earth rotating and going round the sun, so there is no reason to assume seasons or days and nights.
I see a lot of this as a much more straightforward question – are we the ‘components’ of god or were we created by god? Now if we are integral parts of god then the idea of realisation is a lot different to the scenario where we were created by god. Everything I have seen suggests that God created us separately, that we can communicate with god, but we are not god – sensu strictu.
If god created us as separate entities, or perhaps as a single entity with multiple parts, then there is a reason, a goal or some point of final acceptance, and that seems much more likely given our cycling existences here on earth. Inquiring and questioning, understanding and uncovering is part of that process, for it is only by understanding that we gain knowledge and that we manage change. It may seem at times that we are chasing the white rabbit (lol – I like the example) but that should not deter us – sometimes it is the hardest won battles that yield the greatest rewards.
I look for things within, not just within my ‘self’ but within the ‘whole of me, and also within all of the external parts tome, the places that everyone else inhabits – the universe at large. If this is a journey of progression then it can only happen if we know where we are, and where we want to get to, it is of no value to feel ourselves vanishing into the totality of the matrix, it is of no use to fade into accepting the now as some kind of end point, or even simply ‘being’, this provides no benefit or advancement.
If however we are simply some part of god, and simply here to experience then the question that has to be asked as why? If god can create anything, then why bother asking all these parts of himself to experience things that are effectively meaningless to God, if the plan is that the parts of god simply experience the now, then what is the point, not for each part, though that is unclear, but for the whole? If the now is the ‘ultimate’ experience then what is the point of trying to get all of these parts of god to experience it, and even more interesting, why must each part discover this for themselves, why is it not ‘built in’?
What too of the question about seeking, for what is the point of seeking if no proof can be tangible? If one seeks to experience the now, the proof is tangible when one does, if one seeks to heal, then the proof is tangible (or should be) when one does? It is circular to say that one should seek but not seek anything in case one finds it….
“Do you think Ramana will conjure up an orange to satisfy his sceptics” – no not to satisfy others, but if one was to plan to create a universe then I think that one would take a few practise runs at it.
love
chris
Interesting question about time existing in the spirit world, there is no answer as to why, but does it is a different question. Even in your question you seem to assume that it does exist but moves at a different rate (“An Individual can pass over to the spirit world and 20 earth years can seem like 5 minutes”) and I think this is at least in general correct. Working with spirit suggests that it does exist, at l3east that is what messages say, but it may well proceed at a different rate – or perceptions make it seem so. Seasons and days and nights are a function of a tilted earth rotating and going round the sun, so there is no reason to assume seasons or days and nights.
Hi Chris
What I mean Is Chris Is that when an Individual passes over to the world of spirit they lose track of time because there Is no-thing In their present environment (4D) that keeps them within a time related mind-set . What will be 20 earth years since their passing will seem considerable less when they are back within a time related plane trying to convey a message to an Individual on the earth plane. The Individual that receives the message / communications knows how long that Individual has passed although the spirit may not be able to convey precise timings In that respect .
Of course nothing Is lost In time or beyond time all Informational Is back traceable . Can you Imagine how easy mundane memories can fade away when one’s attention Is somewhere else that Is not time related . Only key memories are retained . Memories that still contain a value of sorts .
It’s funny my Cherokee Indian guide (main control) urges me to remember more experiences had with him In a previous lifetime - I say Jesus Christ (excuse the pun) this Is something that happened many lifetimes ago and It’s difficult to pin point within mind (lol) although to him his Important memories of me (as a cherokee) seemed like they had only happened yesterday . .
I see a lot of this as a much more straightforward question – are we the ‘components’ of god or were we created by god? Now if we are integral parts of god then the idea of realisation is a lot different to the scenario where we were created by god. Everything I have seen suggests that God created us separately, that we can communicate with god, but we are not god – sensu strictu.
There Is only One . The realization of God allows the realization of that to be . Within the realization of God the creative potential Is self evident although the self Is no longer present (lol) It’s only back In mind that One knows that what they are created the universe . The universe allows Individuality (not to be confused with separation) . Nothing Is separated from anything Chris . The mind body senses gives the Impression that because you have a physical body that I can see with my physical eyes that you are separate from me . That’s part of what Is illusory .
When we shed the physical body Chris having a spirit body can give the same Impression . So Individual form gives the Impression of separation . It Is false because everytime you lose form of any kind “what you are still remains” .
If god created us as separate entities, or perhaps as a single entity with multiple parts, then there is a reason, a goal or some point of final acceptance, and that seems much more likely given our cycling existences here on earth. Inquiring and questioning, understanding and uncovering is part of that process, for it is only by understanding that we gain knowledge and that we manage change. It may seem at times that we are chasing the white rabbit (lol – I like the example) but that should not deter us – sometimes it is the hardest won battles that yield the greatest rewards.
I prefer your reference made “or perhaps as a single entity with multiple parts” I mentioned that the search Is futile because we cannot find what Is not lost but one must make that search In order for the realization to come to the fore . There are many people that understand the philosophy of that and give up the search because they have resonated with the Idea that the search Is a pointless exercise, but one does not become self realized just because they resonate with the search being pointless .
I look for things within, not just within my ‘self’ but within the ‘whole of me, and also within all of the external parts tome, the places that everyone else inhabits – the universe at large. If this is a journey of progression then it can only happen if we know where we are, and where we want to get to, it is of no value to feel ourselves vanishing into the totality of the matrix, it is of no use to fade into accepting the now as some kind of end point, or even simply ‘being’, this provides no benefit or advancement.
Maintaining one’s attachment to the physical or to our senses has much value to It - just the same as It Is when an Individual detaches from them also . Each Individual Is at different stages of ones journey . What holds any value for one Individual will not hold any value for another . If an Individual finds pleasure In saturating ones self In the material / ego then so be It - If an Individual starts to lose Identification to the mind-body and the universe then so be It . All Is good . .
If however we are simply some part of god, and simply here to experience then the question that has to be asked as why? If god can create anything, then why bother asking all these parts of himself to experience things that are effectively meaningless to God, if the plan is that the parts of god simply experience the now, then what is the point, not for each part, though that is unclear, but for the whole? If the now is the ‘ultimate’ experience then what is the point of trying to get all of these parts of god to experience it, and even more interesting, why must each part discover this for themselves, why is it not ‘built in’?
Beyond mind Chris God does not know God because you can only know something In mind . When we started to become self conscious In mind whilst experiencing our mindful universe we Initially forgot who we were/are . It seems as If the more we experience life In many many ways/forms we then start to become aware In that what we think we are Isn’t what we are and then we start to peel back many of our layers/guises until we remember / realize what we are and that Is what we have been all along . It Is a process . That Is what happens . Can we apply that process and to what happens as a reason for God to create the universe and for we have our Individual experiences - I would say It’s possible .
What too of the question about seeking, for what is the point of seeking if no proof can be tangible? If one seeks to experience the now, the proof is tangible when one does, if one seeks to heal, then the proof is tangible (or should be) when one does? It is circular to say that one should seek but not seek anything in case one finds it….
The point Is Chris - Is that by the time one has reached the conclusion that there Is no-thing to find one has already come thus far on one’s journey and will understand as to why there Is no-thing . What they have been looking for has always been present . One must exhaust one’s self In the search before they are at a point of surrender . Thats when the self made barriers dissolve . In some respects It seems that the realizations come to the fore when an Individual has no-thing more to give of themselves - In that they have let go of everything that attaches themselves to separation .
“Do you think Ramana will conjure up an orange to satisfy his sceptics” – no not to satisfy others, but if one was to plan to create a universe then I think that one would take a few practice runs at it.
Ha Ha (Chuckle time again) . . Why would God need practice . That would mean God In totality would have to be In doubt of what we are’s ability In the first Instance .
Doubt Is fear based and what we are Is Love . .
x dazzle x
Hi Dazzle,
I agree about the time issues between us and the spirit world, and communication is not easy so that makes things even more difficult, we do see spirits keeping an eye on individuals, and being apparently able, in effectively real time, of warning them of danger for instance, so there are times when the issue is less clear.
The difference in many memories, at a brain level at least is that many are treated differently, and although I sort of agree that nothing is ever lost or truly forgotten in many cases it effectively can be under normal conditions.
Interesting that your guide urges you to remember past lives, far too often we ignore these, and yet at the time of course they were at least as important to us as our lives are now, the learning opportunities were different but they were just as valuable. The only problem with this I think is that it appears that we are meant to experience lives with the personal changes and evolution that past lives have allowed, but without the memories being accessible. There is a good reason for this for it opens up opportunities that are different if one lives many separated lives as opposed to one very long one.
In terms of god you say that there is only one, but you did not really address the real question at the heart of the issue here. The question is whether we are individual parts of God, made of god and temporarily separate here in the physical, or whether we were created by God but not of part of God. The question is fundamental to understanding our role or mission. If we are simply small sections of God then our function is simply to perform some task for God, presumably to experience physical existence, though why a God should need that is unclear. It leaves us as ‘appendages’ feeling individual but nevertheless not separate and without self determinism. If on the other hand we were created by God as separate to God, then we have an opportunity to realise our own destiny, whatever that may be, this is reinforced by the gift of free will and so our many lives become a chance to evolve and develop.
Neither of these actually negates the feeling (and actuality) of connectedness, neither removes the entirety of the universe, but there is a massive difference between them otherwise.
The fact that we experience some of our existence in the physical plane is not an issue, for this is the same whatever – but in the first if we are part of god, then God has shaped us to be exactly what we are meant to be, including the mind and the self sustaining ego, if however we are evolving into whatever we can make of ourselves, in a free state to determine it, then aspects like the mind and ego are part of the evolutionary route, they have a valid function and necessary form. The same is true of guides, why ever would one have a guide if all we are meant to do is experience a physical existence.
It also changes how we deal with our lives here. If we are just here as temporary parts of God then choosing to (say) live in the bliss of the now and pay little head to the future make no difference to us, we can be just like a taste bud that enjoys the taste of sugar and not bitter aloes. If however we are on individual journeys of evolution and learning then it is important that we pay due credence and attention to both our past and our future and so simply living to ‘taste sugar’ will actually halt our progression, it gets in the way of our raison d’être.
This is the search that we need to complete – for by doing so it changes our entire path. The search is anything but pointless, and simply because it is hard should never stop us from trying to find the truth.
“All Is good . .” – balance is the key, while it may seem that whatever we feel the need to do will be the right thing for the moment I have come round to questioning this. The trap here is the ‘sweets and crisps’ syndrome, of looking only to the wants of the now with no thought for the future, for those who live on ‘sweets and crisps’ will have to deal with the issues of obesity and tooth decay, though not until some time in the future. We can easily be distracted from the vision of our quest by seeking only the needs of the moment – and this renders us lost.
“Beyond mind Chris God” – so as from the above I do not think I am Chris God, not even chris god, just chris. The benefit of this is that I think that we can get to know god, we can correspond and communicate and we can learn from God. If we are separate entities with free will we can choose to try to understand God or not, but if we are just part of god, then there is nothing to learn, it is not our choice, we must just do as we are directed, in that case yes, the quest is pointless, for we already know the answer. So I think that we have everything to find, I see only vistas of discovery and improvement, for to discover that there is nothing to find makes one’s existence valueless.
Heehe – I know you would like the God practising scenario – of course practise make perfect – or so they say.
“Doubt Is fear based and what we are Is Love” – one destructive and one constructive.
love
chris
Hi Dazzle,
I agree about the time issues between us and the spirit world, and communication is not easy so that makes things even more difficult, we do see spirits keeping an eye on individuals, and being apparently able, in effectively real time, of warning them of danger for instance, so there are times when the issue is less clear.
The difference in many memories, at a brain level at least is that many are treated differently, and although I sort of agree that nothing is ever lost or truly forgotten in many cases it effectively can be under normal conditions.
Hi Chris . That was a whopper of a post (lol) 🙂
Some guides and deceased friends and relatives visit the earth plane often and they are still In touch with the dramas that are contained within the lives of their loved ones . In this respect there are ways and means for them to predict what’s to likely to manifest for us .
Interesting that your guide urges you to remember past lives, far too often we ignore these, and yet at the time of course they were at least as important to us as our lives are now, the learning opportunities were different but they were just as valuable. The only problem with this I think is that it appears that we are meant to experience lives with the personal changes and evolution that past lives have allowed, but without the memories being accessible. There is a good reason for this for it opens up opportunities that are different if one lives many separated lives as opposed to one very long one.
In this Instance and I am sure many can relate to this - Is at times I would like to know my guides on a deeper level . Of course “I do know” subconsciously but all that I do know I am not necessarily conscious of . I get from time to time Images that my cherokee guide projects to me that Includes both of us canoeing or riding horses - He urges me to remember (lol) because It will In one respect amplify our friendship and rekindle the brotherly love . When a guide says that they love you dearly and that they are your best friend so to speak - It kind of leaves you wishing to reconnect with all of that past life memories In order to consume the sincerity of his loving gestures and words . . Of course when I am In the spirit world when my body rests I am fully Integrated with those memories I just forget (again) when I return to the physical .. doh!! 🙂 (although not everything Is forgotten) .
In terms of god you say that there is only one, but you did not really address the real question at the heart of the issue here. The question is whether we are individual parts of God, made of god and temporarily separate here in the physical, or whether we were created by God but not of part of God. The question is fundamental to understanding our role or mission. If we are simply small sections of God then our function is simply to perform some task for God, presumably to experience physical existence, though why a God should need that is unclear. It leaves us as ‘appendages’ feeling individual but nevertheless not separate and without self determinism. If on the other hand we were created by God as separate to God, then we have an opportunity to realise our own destiny, whatever that may be, this is reinforced by the gift of free will and so our many lives become a chance to evolve and develop.
I have mentioned many times that we are Individual aspects of the same and only one (source) be It (God) or whatever . What we are / (God) within mind or beyond mind Is not separate from anything that (You) Chris can perceive or not perceive . We are therefore not performing anything for God In a way that there Is a him and there Is an Us . In regards to God experiencing physicality of course there are other dimensions and other forms of existence too experiencing life that are also God (You) .
Neither of these actually negates the feeling (and actuality) of connectedness, neither removes the entirety of the universe, but there is a massive difference between them otherwise.
The fact that we experience some of our existence in the physical plane is not an issue, for this is the same whatever – but in the first if we are part of god, then God has shaped us to be exactly what we are meant to be, including the mind and the self sustaining ego, if however we are evolving into whatever we can make of ourselves, in a free state to determine it, then aspects like the mind and ego are part of the evolutionary route, they have a valid function and necessary form. The same is true of guides, why ever would one have a guide if all we are meant to do is experience a physical existence.
I was touching on this with Giles about the creation of our universe being either created by accident or by chance or that It was perfectly designed In a way that planet earth contains / provides everything that Is needed to sustain life . The mindful created universe also entertains Individual mind-sets for Individual souls as In like the ego as you have mentioned . The ego allows what we are to experience what It’s like to feel superior etc, (there’s nothing wrong with that) but It does have a side effect hahaha . The mind also allows what we are to feel humble and to feel that we are no better than the ant that we acknowledged walking upon the pathway . The mind allows what we are to be aware that what we are Is the ant also and therefore whatever form be It an animal, mineral, human etc, that we are In experience of - doesn’t separate what we are from anything .
It can therefore be said that a possible reason for why we are in experience of our created universe Is to evolve In ways that I have mentioned above . I am also not saying god realization Is the ending of our Individual evolvement but It has taken millions upon millions of our so called earth years for many of us to reach that awareness (lol) .
It also changes how we deal with our lives here. If we are just here as temporary parts of God then choosing to (say) live in the bliss of the now and pay little head to the future make no difference to us, we can be just like a taste bud that enjoys the taste of sugar and not bitter aloes. If however we are on individual journeys of evolution and learning then it is important that we pay due credence and attention to both our past and our future and so simply living to ‘taste sugar’ will actually halt our progression, it gets in the way of our raison d’être.
This is the search that we need to complete – for by doing so it changes our entire path. The search is anything but pointless, and simply because it is hard should never stop us from trying to find the truth.
As mentioned there are no rights and wrongs as such but I agree that as Individuals we will all probably complete the search at some point . Like I have said the journey made Is the key . We end up knowing that we are not this and we are not that within the journey - In essence we have to realize what we are not In order to realize what we are .
“Beyond mind Chris God” – so as from the above I do not think I am Chris God, not even chris god, just chris. The benefit of this is that I think that we can get to know god, we can correspond and communicate and we can learn from God. If we are separate entities with free will we can choose to try to understand God or not, but if we are just part of god, then there is nothing to learn, it is not our choice, we must just do as we are directed, in that case yes, the quest is pointless, for we already know the answer. So I think that we have everything to find, I see only vistas of discovery and improvement, for to discover that there is nothing to find makes one’s existence valueless.
Heehe – I know you would like the God practicing scenario – of course practice make perfect – or so they say.
The thing Is Chris have you realized what you are whilst you have remained In a “Chris Identification” mind-set . That’s worth pondering . Perhaps you need to hang on to Chris for a wee bit longer . . .
x dazzle x
Hi Dazzle,
“In this respect there are ways and means for them to predict what’s to likely to manifest for us” – yes – though I think it is still a prediction based on probabilities rather than a sight into the future that will (for certain) be. At least that is what I’ve seen so far.
“although not everything Is forgotten” – when we connect to guides and others like this it is not the memories that matter but the connection that the memory invokes, it highlights the web that was made at the time and reminds us of the strength and quality of it, this is not just a memory, for that is just a sequence of ‘recorded’ events, but is a link on a spiritual level. You are very lucky to have connected so strongly to your guide, many do not of course, and many are locked out by walls of ignorance. This is one of the reasons why an obsessive attachment to living in the now only is a problem, for it denies so many things that are important to us in terms of evolution and one of these relates to our guides, their job really is to ensure we are on the right track (a track that goes somewhere), and that means progression not just coping with what is ‘in front of us now’, but also what will (possibly/probably/maybe) in front of us soon (down the track).
“we are Individual aspects of the same and only one” – yes – I see – and that is something we have differing views about, and they really do change things depending which, ultimately is correct. How one would go about finding out more other than asking I’m not sure, and I’m not even sure that we have the language to ask the question properly, but so far what I have seen and understood means that I believe differently to you about this. I’m not sure that angels for instance are ‘simply a part of God’, which sounds odd but only if one assumes that there is only one overarching presence that encompasses all.
“the creation of our universe being either created by accident or by chance” – it is not so much the creation that matters, it is whether the direction in which it has evolved has been directed, and so whether we were part of an original design, or whether the idea was to allow what would evolve to do so. ‘In his image’ does not mean that god has two arms and two legs as it were. In terms of awareness we have only just started, we will either destroy ourselves, or if we are very careful (and not bring on self destruction) continue our evolution into realms that we cannot even conceive from here, never mind the years, time is only of an issue if one is in a hurry, and if god was in a hurry then he could never have allowed free will.
“we will all probably complete the search at some Point” – yes – I like the point with a capital P, I think that many of the inhabitants of the non-physical realms that people have interacted with have made this journey, and that is why I think that they are part of God’s universe but not part of God.
“In essence we have to realize what we are not In order to realize what we are” – not only what we are but what we can be.
love
chris
“In this respect there are ways and means for them to predict what’s to likely to manifest for us” – yes – though I think it is still a prediction based on probabilities rather than a sight into the future that will (for certain) be. At least that is what I’ve seen so far.
Hi Chris . Good conversation by the way . 🙂
Your thoughts here Chris can open up a debate all by It’s self . I don’t really see It (strictly) as being just probabilities or possibilities In regards to what happens In our so called future . There’s a debate to be had In some respect that what Is to come - Has already happened . Certain experiences that we choose to endure / observe within this lifetime are configured within our reality prior to accepting a physical life experience . Many Individuals choose their fate prior to their Incarnation . Many choose to witness the great earth changes of present that will Include their physical death through one disaster or another . Chance, Probabilities, and Possibilities don’t have a say - wouldn’t you say . Everything spirit has told me or shown to me either has happened or just hasn't happened yet .
“although not everything Is forgotten” – when we connect to guides and others like this it is not the memories that matter but the connection that the memory invokes, it highlights the web that was made at the time and reminds us of the strength and quality of it, this is not just a memory, for that is just a sequence of ‘recorded’ events, but is a link on a spiritual level. You are very lucky to have connected so strongly to your guide, many do not of course, and many are locked out by walls of ignorance. This is one of the reasons why an obsessive attachment to living in the now only is a problem, for it denies so many things that are important to us in terms of evolution and one of these relates to our guides, their job really is to ensure we are on the right track (a track that goes somewhere), and that means progression not just coping with what is ‘in front of us now’, but also what will (possibly/probably/maybe) in front of us soon (down the track).
I agree It’s not just the visual memories that are Important It’s the whole essence that’s entwined within them . The majority of my past lives remembered have contained what Is necessary to acknowledge, normally a very strong emotion be It fear, regret, remorse . . .etc . . Very few past life memories come to the fore for me that contain a peaceful and loving environment . It’s only really the past lives that contain something that needs to be healed and forgiven - That’s what self enquiry does for you - It homes In on what keeps you from being yourself . .
“we are Individual aspects of the same and only one” – yes – I see – and that is something we have differing views about, and they really do change things depending which, ultimately is correct. How one would go about finding out more other than asking I’m not sure, and I’m not even sure that we have the language to ask the question properly, but so far what I have seen and understood means that I believe differently to you about this. I’m not sure that angels for instance are ‘simply a part of God’, which sounds odd but only if one assumes that there is only one overarching presence that encompasses all.
Asking, questioning and self enquiring Is a good method Chris . Don’t take anything on face value - don’t believe what I say or what anyone says . Self enquiry will contain all the answers for what the self needs to know . What you do not need to know you will have no need for the answer . Angels are no different to the easter bunny - As In we are all Individual aspects of the One . Any type of form or a non form aspect of the “one” Is totally Irrelevant . It matters not If one aspect of the one Is a tree or a monkey or an angel or an elemental .
the creation of our universe being either created by accident or by chance” – it is not so much the creation that matters, it is whether the direction in which it has evolved has been directed, and so whether we were part of an original design, or whether the idea was to allow what would evolve to do so. ‘In his image’ does not mean that god has two arms and two legs as it were. In terms of awareness we have only just started, we will either destroy ourselves, or if we are very careful (and not bring on self destruction) continue our evolution into realms that we cannot even conceive from here, never mind the years, time is only of an issue if one is in a hurry, and if god was in a hurry then he could never have allowed free will.
I like to look at It this way Chris . The creative universe started off as a seed of life and like a flower the petals unfold just as the evolution of life unfolds naturally . What Is contained within the seed Is love that has contained divine Intelligence that has breathed life In to the seed for what unfolds Is not by chance .
“we will all probably complete the search at some Point” – yes – I like the point with a capital P, I think that many of the inhabitants of the non-physical realms that people have interacted with have made this journey, and that is why I think that they are part of God’s universe but not part of God.
“In essence we have to realize what we are not In order to realize what we are” – not only what we are but what we can be.
Can we be anything other than what we are .
x daz x
Hi Dazzle,
“There’s a debate to be had In some respect that what Is to come - Has already happened”
It is a big debate as to whether some or all events are pre-destined. The issue is this – if they are there is no free will, and if there is no free will then we are just puppets of God playing out a script for some reason unknown to us, perhaps just amusement, a bit like a Shakespeare play but without the chance to add any artistic slant on the play. If there is only the pre-destined as you suggest then anything we do here is effectively worthless, for there is no chance to change anything or improve in any way other than that laid down by the pre-written script. I do not for one minute believe this is the case, but if it is then it may well be that we are just part(s) of god and probably just no more than a daydream in some ways.
“Many Individuals choose their fate prior to their Incarnation”
No - I do think that there is something in this – but it is more about being put into a position where this may be experienced rather than choosing a pre-destined script. We learn and evolve by experiencing many aspects of life, and so there will be some where life is harder than others, and some where there will be tragedy, but equally there will be some where there is love and perhaps a life of ease. A mix to challenge us in all of our aspects.
Even though we do get some messages that relate to the future I do not believe they are unchangeable, this is perhaps evidenced by warnings that some guides give that allow some to avoid fatal accidents.
“Very few past life memories come to the fore for me that contain a peaceful and loving environment” – this does not mean that there have not been many of these, simply that the ones that have evoked strong emotions and feelings usually make themselves known first. However there is also a view that we learn more from mistakes than when we do things right, we do learn from both, practise makes perfect and all that, but mistakes often allow us to make big steps towards getting it right – so these moments that we remember that are full of things other than love are valuable as well.
Haaha – of course I’m going to say that angels are different to the Easter bunny, but the point is well made, and if I had not tested and investigated about angels I might agree. All of these things are available if we use all that we are and look without prejudice and with open minds. Self enquiry is often a slow method of discovery, however far too often people simply follow what is perceived wisdom as if it is the only path, they stop thinking for themselves and leave themselves ignorant of what is available within. For this reason I choose to read ‘the books of wisdom’ with great caution and care, for much of what they say is designed to subsume the individuality of the reader, they seek unthinking acolytes.
“I like to look at It this way Chris . The creative universe started off as a seed of life and like a flower the petals unfold just as the evolution of life unfolds naturally . What Is contained within the seed Is love that has contained divine Intelligence that has breathed life In to the seed for what unfolds Is not by chance”.
Nice description – I liked it apart from the last bit, for my belief is that when it all started the kind of flower, the colour of the petals and the ‘divine intelligence’ is what has evolved, without prejudice and without guidance. This is the whole point, if it is any other way then it becomes a worthless play with puppet actors. The intelligence, the nature of the spiritual beings that evolve depends upon the evolution process, some is chance, some can be changed from within by those beings themselves, what emerges (eventually, and there is little sign we are near yet) is up to those beings, for the moment this means us. If this is what you meant that it is not by chance then I agree, if you meant it is a process that is used to produce a predefined output than I don’t….lol
You ask if we can be anything other than what we are, and the answer is (perhaps) – yes. The tense of the question is important – for at this moment in time (now lol) we are who we are, we cannot be, at this moment anything else but that, but we can be, in the future, different to what we are now, same person, more experience, greater understanding, evolved as it were, this is the whole point of it, that we should be. Who we are does not change, but what we are is mutable.
love
chris
It is a big debate as to whether some or all events are pre-destined. The issue is this – if they are there is no free will, and if there is no free will then we are just puppets of God playing out a script for some reason unknown to us, perhaps just amusement, a bit like a Shakespeare play but without the chance to add any artistic slant on the play. If there is only the pre-destined as you suggest then anything we do here is effectively worthless, for there is no chance to change anything or improve in any way other than that laid down by the pre-written script. I do not for one minute believe this is the case, but if it is then it may well be that we are just part(s) of god and probably just no more than a daydream in some ways.
Hi Chris .
You are still In a mind-set Chris where you are separating you as being the puppet and God being the puppet master . You are both puppet and puppet master . There Is no-one pulling your strings Chris .
“Many Individuals choose their fate prior to their Incarnation”
No - I do think that there is something in this – but it is more about being put into a position where this may be experienced rather than choosing a pre-destined script. We learn and evolve by experiencing many aspects of life, and so there will be some where life is harder than others, and some where there will be tragedy, but equally there will be some where there is love and perhaps a life of ease. A mix to challenge us in all of our aspects.
Even though we do get some messages that relate to the future I do not believe they are unchangeable, this is perhaps evidenced by warnings that some guides give that allow some to avoid fatal accidents.
Each life experience had Influences the next . Like the first move had In a game of chess . The first move can at times decide the outcome of the game . The free will you speak off becomes limited because If you have already lost your queen In the chess game you are therefore limited In your freedom to move where you please .
There are no accidents In life as there are no victims . What a bit of bad luck - Jesus Incarnating when he did and what a bit of bad luck that he was self - realized - and what a bit of bad luck that he was crucified . Oh what a bit of good luck that his death Inspired billions of Individuals In some shape or form .
Nah . . No luck Involved . If Jesus had died when he perhaps fell off his donkey aged 12 yrs then the teachings of “what we are” In relation to all of us being the children of our father would not of spread In the way that It did . Unfortunately the teaching of the ascended master has been shaped to suit man made religions but It doesn’t mean that - that wasn’t meant to happen .
“Very few past life memories come to the fore for me that contain a peaceful and loving environment” – this does not mean that there have not been many of these, simply that the ones that have evoked strong emotions and feelings usually make themselves known first. However there is also a view that we learn more from mistakes than when we do things right, we do learn from both, practise makes perfect and all that, but mistakes often allow us to make big steps towards getting it right – so these moments that we remember that are full of things other than love are valuable as well.
I understand that so called mistakes brings forth the opportunity for growth / learning . I suggest that mistakes turn out to not be mistakes after all for there are no rights and wrongs In one respect .
Haaha – of course I’m going to say that angels are different to the Easter bunny, but the point is well made, and if I had not tested and investigated about angels I might agree. All of these things are available if we use all that we are and look without prejudice and with open minds. Self enquiry is often a slow method of discovery, however far too often people simply follow what is perceived wisdom as if it is the only path, they stop thinking for themselves and leave themselves ignorant of what is available within. For this reason I choose to read ‘the books of wisdom’ with great caution and care, for much of what they say is designed to subsume the individuality of the reader, they seek unthinking acolytes.
Yes Self enquiry Is a slow method of discovery . Thats why billions of Individuals are not self realized . It’s not easy to say the least because you have to let go of the world and everyone In It In order to do so . I am glad that the books that you read are taken with a pinch of salt . I can’t remember who or where I have heard It but one master say’s - put those books down . . (lol) .
Having the knowledge without the wisdom of experience Is like an Individual having a heart and yet no soul .
“I like to look at It this way Chris . The creative universe started off as a seed of life and like a flower the petals unfold just as the evolution of life unfolds naturally . What Is contained within the seed Is love that has contained divine Intelligence that has breathed life In to the seed for what unfolds Is not by chance”.
Nice description – I liked it apart from the last bit, for my belief is that when it all started the kind of flower, the colour of the petals and the ‘divine intelligence’ is what has evolved, without prejudice and without guidance. This is the whole point, if it is any other way then it becomes a worthless play with puppet actors. The intelligence, the nature of the spiritual beings that evolve depends upon the evolution process, some is chance, some can be changed from within by those beings themselves, what emerges (eventually, and there is little sign we are near yet) is up to those beings, for the moment this means us. If this is what you meant that it is not by chance then I agree, if you meant it is a process that is used to produce a predefined output than I don’t….lol
You have It a bit back to front chris In terms of evolvement . We are returning back to what we originally were already . The evolvement process as In what we refer to as (lets say) being In experience of a stone and then a plant and the an animal and a human / alien or whatever Is leading us back within mind to what we are that Is beyond It . Many refer to our life experience as just a story or a dream or a game .
As mentioned before an Individual can lose awareness of the self and of the universe In an Instant . What does that say to anyone about the world / environment that we are experiencing life In . How attached Is anyone being to comparing themselves as just being a puppet and being separated from what they are .
Its quite funny and Ironic In a way Chris what we are evolves through our mindful creation attaining many things be It form, Identity, wealth, knowledge, power, etc, to then In turn renounce them all again ... he heh e . it’s a mad world .
Of course I am not taking anything away from the journey made . Our mindful creative universe Is a wonder In It’s own right . Some might say a miracle . . .
You ask if we can be anything other than what we are, and the answer is (perhaps) – yes. The tense of the question is important – for at this moment in time (now lol) we are who we are, we cannot be, at this moment anything else but that, but we can be, in the future, different to what we are now, same person, more experience, greater understanding, evolved as it were, this is the whole point of it, that we should be. Who we are does not change, but what we are is mutable.
Clay Is Clay . We can shape It and reshape It In to many forms and dress It up In a unique fashion all day long or until the cows come home .
The Clay remains the same Clay though .
x dazzle x
Hi Dazzle,
“You are still In a mind-set Chris where you are separating you as being the puppet and God being the puppet master . You are both puppet and puppet master . There Is no-one pulling your strings”
Actually I do not see myself as a puppet of god as a puppet master, that is the whole point – I think god keeps away from pulling strings by allowing us to evolve as we will, and with free will, and so that stops me being a puppet – but I also do not think that I am a puppet master – I am me, part of god’s work and I will make what I can of being me.
“The first move can at times decide the outcome of the game” – this may be true, and we are to some extent a product of what we have done and who we have been, however your view only allows for a strict set of rules, and evolution does not follow strict sets of rules – we can become something different, and we are, and each time we evolve the whole world of possibilities opens up again – if anything holds us back it is believing that we cannot change, that we are who we are and will never be anything different. Only those who are constrained believe that, and because of that they may never change – self-fulfilling prophecy.
In the case of Jesus there is another issue, and that this was one of the few times that god did interfere, in order to pass a message he did insert Jesus into our world, the life was not left to chance for the message would have not been clear then, and Jesus knew this, that was what the 40 days in the wilderness was about, and he could see it coming. In our cases it is up to us, we have the opportunity to evolve, whether we decide to take it is another matter.
“I understand that so called mistakes brings forth the opportunity for growth / learning . I suggest that mistakes turn out to not be mistakes after all for there are no rights and wrongs In one respect”
Perhaps true, but when we learn to walk we start off with many falls, bit by bit we get better as we learn, and eventually master it. Once we get it right we learn very little about walking. So the falls are a part of learning, and this is true in all aspects of life, it is actually what drives evolution in many way.
“Yes Self enquiry Is a slow method of discovery . That’s why billions of Individuals are not self realized” – perhaps, but actually most are just too distracted by other things. Those things may just be survival for many, but for others it is quite the opposite, they either find a small part of what they seek and settle for that and make no further progress (sweets and crisps), or they get diverted by following others and never realising that they have lost their own path by blindly tagging along with someone on a different path as acolytes.
“We are returning back to what we originally were already” – no I don’t think we are, for if we are it is a fruitless journey, a circular drive of no value. Evolution is by its very definition a process of change (and perhaps growth), of development, if evolution only leads back to the start it has failed.
“Many refer to our life experience as just a story or a dream or a game” – and at times it may feel like it as well, but it is anything but, it is what we exist for.
“As mentioned before an Individual can lose awareness of the self and of the universe In an Instant” – yes, this is one of the states we can experience, and for many it is a valuable experience, but it is only one of the many.
Clay is clay, and reshaping it will not change its fundamental nature, but I believe that evolution is not about shaping the clay, though that is part of it, but about changing the nature of the clay, perhaps by firing it, then its nature is changed, and a new from appears, harder and more resilient, different in colour and with less water – this is more akin to our opportunity.
love
chris
You are still In a mind-set Chris where you are separating you as being the puppet and God being the puppet master . You are both puppet and puppet master . There Is no-one pulling your strings”
Actually I do not see myself as a puppet of god as a puppet master, that is the whole point – I think god keeps away from pulling strings by allowing us to evolve as we will, and with free will, and so that stops me being a puppet – but I also do not think that I am a puppet master – I am me, part of god’s work and I will make what I can of being me.
Hi Chris .
O.k. So you remain In a mind-set that separates God from what you are . There Is no God that Is separate from you that allows you to have free will . By “you” Implying (god keeps away from pulling strings by allowing us to evolve as we will) comes from a place where there Is God allowing what we are as Individuals to act/function Independently from God .
“The first move can at times decide the outcome of the game” – this may be true, and we are to some extent a product of what we have done and who we have been, however your view only allows for a strict set of rules, and evolution does not follow strict sets of rules – we can become something different, and we are, and each time we evolve the whole world of possibilities opens up again – if anything holds us back it is believing that we cannot change, that we are who we are and will never be anything different. Only those who are constrained believe that, and because of that they may never change – self-fulfilling prophecy.
In the case of Jesus there is another issue, and that this was one of the few times that god did interfere, in order to pass a message he did insert Jesus into our world, the life was not left to chance for the message would have not been clear then, and Jesus knew this, that was what the 40 days in the wilderness was about, and he could see it coming. In our cases it is up to us, we have the opportunity to evolve, whether we decide to take it is another matter.
Each realm / dimension Is governed by natural laws . If we reside within a certain realm where karma Is allowed to Influence and play a part In one’s life experience (for Instance) then these laws and rules so to speak cannot be broken . We are both the prisoner and jailer of our own making . We are not able to exercise free-will until we are free of conditions . Karma Is one of those conditions . We choose prior to our Incarnation what conditions one must endure that will suit our karmic status . That’s what I mean when I speak of no accidents, no luck, no victims .
Of course there are many aspects of karma, personal, ancestral, global, universal . It could be said that jesus’s sacrifice was global or universal . A selfless act to help raise the consciousness on a grand scale .
“I understand that so called mistakes brings forth the opportunity for growth / learning . I suggest that mistakes turn out to not be mistakes after all for there are no rights and wrongs In one respect”
Perhaps true, but when we learn to walk we start off with many falls, bit by bit we get better as we learn, and eventually master it. Once we get it right we learn very little about walking. So the falls are a part of learning, and this is true in all aspects of life, it is actually what drives evolution in many way.
Yes In a way . It’s how one wants to look at what’s contained within the falls . We cannot walk until we have crawled we cannot run before we have walked . . Not really mistakes at any level .
“Yes Self enquiry Is a slow method of discovery . That’s why billions of Individuals are not self realized” – perhaps, but actually most are just too distracted by other things. Those things may just be survival for many, but for others it is quite the opposite, they either find a small part of what they seek and settle for that and make no further progress (sweets and crisps), or they get diverted by following others and never realising that they have lost their own path by blindly tagging along with someone on a different path as acolytes.
Any environment will not distract an Individual from realizing what they are . Some Individuals can sit In a monastery and not reach enlightenment . Distractions have there place . If there was not chaos we would not know of peace . How focused Is one to detach from the chaos Is more to the point . Perhaps only when they are ready too I would say .
“We are returning back to what we originally were already” – no I don’t think we are, for if we are it is a fruitless journey, a circular drive of no value. Evolution is by its very definition a process of change (and perhaps growth), of development, if evolution only leads back to the start it has failed.
“Many refer to our life experience as just a story or a dream or a game” – and at times it may feel like it as well, but it is anything but, it is what we exist for.
“As mentioned before an Individual can lose awareness of the self and of the universe In an Instant” – yes, this is one of the states we can experience, and for many it is a valuable experience, but it is only one of the many.
Yet again It boils down to Individual perception . Returning back to nothingness may seem a fruitless journey to you and yet within the journey back into God realization and ‘being” would make perfect sense to another .
What do you expect from your Individual journey Chris .
Clay is clay, and reshaping it will not change its fundamental nature, but I believe that evolution is not about shaping the clay, though that is part of it, but about changing the nature of the clay, perhaps by firing it, then its nature is changed, and a new from appears, harder and more resilient, different in colour and with less water – this is more akin to our opportunity.
love
If God can be described as the energy that creates / manifests life as we know It to be - As In the source of energy that has created the universe and everything within It - that allows multiple realms and dimensions and forms and non forms to coexist as one - are you then suggesting that through the evolution of these many Individual life forms that are not separate from the creator - that the nature of the energy that created could be changed . How?
x daz x
Hi Dazzle,
There is no evidence at all that we are part of god, this is a wish that people have that allows them to assume they are divine. If you know some evidence that I am interested but I see no reason (given my limited knowledge) to simply assume that we are bit of god. The perceived wisdom is that god created us, or the universe at least, but that does not mean that god used parts of god to do so, and if you follow this idea then there are obvious reasons for not wanting to be puppet-master.
Of course if one is attached to being part of god then this is a hard challenge, for how can we be separate from god? But as far as I have looked it is based on a wish.
Karma is one aspect of balance, and all systems require balance. Of course that is balance over a period, not immediate, but this balance does mean that what we give is what we will get back – this ‘treat you neighbour as you would wish to be treated’ is woven through many traditions – it is being lost in modern days society as people get more greedy and forget or will not see what it is doing to them.
“We are not able to exercise free-will until we are free of conditions” – of course we are, but that will is within the laws that surround us, it simply means that we do exercise choice and the choice is not predestined.
We may well choose what conditions we will experience when we reincarnate, but that is not about lacking free will, for a start we have chosen, secondly it is about how we react and behave within those conditions that allows us to express who we are, each turn has free will options.
“It could be said that jesus’s sacrifice was global or universal . A selfless act to help raise the consciousness on a grand scale” – yes – I think this is correct – but the additional complexity is added in that he was part of god, different to us, and so was performing god’s mission.
“we have walked . . Not really mistakes at any level” – well…. If one tries to walk and falls then that has to be seen as a mistake, in some manner the attempt failed so there must have been some deviation from the ‘way to walk’ – a mistake. The thing is it teaches us what will not work and so we can avoid it next time.
“Distractions have there place” – it is actually more broad than this, for by calling them distractions one predefines the conditions needed, and also excludes the ‘distractions’ from the process amp. By doing this one limits oneself to just a small part of what we are, there is no need to do this, in fact it reduces the ability to find the full opportunity that is available.
“What do you expect from your Individual journey Chris” – ha – good question, I think this is something we each must find for ourselves, at the very least I expect progression, evolution and a change in myself that takes me nearer the final objective. If you want to understand the final objective then you must look for it, following others does not yield the answer.
“If God can be described as the energy that creates / manifests life as we know It to be “ – no – this is just shallow thinking, god is not ‘energy’ any more than a table is ‘wood’, and there is no reason to assume that it is only god’s energy that is used to create the universe – this is simply another short sighted way to include ‘us’ into god-mode. Energy exists, organising it is different to donating it.
“are you then suggesting that through the evolution of these many Individual life forms that are not separate from the creator - that the nature of the energy that created could be changed . How?” – actually I am not suggesting that these many individual life forms that are not separate from the creator are what we are talking about – I think that we are separate – that is the whole point. If we were only part of god’s energy then we would not be able to change the energy, we pretty much would not be able to change anything, it would all be directed by god, and so god would be the puppet master, so on the contrary I see that we are separate, only if we are can we have free will, and only if we are can we find out how to deal with things like energy by ourselves.
love
chris
There is no evidence at all that we are part of god, this is a wish that people have that allows them to assume they are divine. If you know some evidence that I am interested but I see no reason (given my limited knowledge) to simply assume that we are bit of god. The perceived wisdom is that god created us, or the universe at least, but that does not mean that god used parts of god to do so, and if you follow this idea then there are obvious reasons for not wanting to be puppet-master.
Hi Ya .
What (evidence) Is there of a God that exists Chris let alone renouncing that you are a part of God . What evidence of there being a God would satisfy your Intellect . What evidence ascertained other than with the use of your senses Chris Is there so called evidence that ‘You’ exist . Put your senses to the side and then make a connection with who you are . Transcend the ordinary mind and then allow what you are to the fore . Where do you find the evidence of what you are beyond the senses and beyond the ordinary mind Chris . What you are Is still present beyond sense . So why do you feel that you can find evidence of what you are or (God) (to some) whilst you are of the flesh and functioning within the ordinary mind .
Of course if one is attached to being part of god then this is a hard challenge, for how can we be separate from god? But as far as I have looked it is based on a wish.
It Is based on a wish for those that are looking for answers with their senses or with the Intellect . An Individual that has realized what they are will see what they are through many eyes but for an Individual to realize what they are they will have to close their eyes to this world .
Karma is one aspect of balance, and all systems require balance. Of course that is balance over a period, not immediate, but this balance does mean that what we give is what we will get back – this ‘treat you neighbour as you would wish to be treated’ is woven through many traditions – it is being lost in modern days society as people get more greedy and forget or will not see what it is doing to them.
I agree .
“We are not able to exercise free-will until we are free of conditions” – of course we are, but that will is within the laws that surround us, it simply means that we do exercise choice and the choice is not predestined.
We may well choose what conditions we will experience when we reincarnate, but that is not about lacking free will, for a start we have chosen, secondly it is about how we react and behave within those conditions that allows us to express who we are, each turn has free will options.
I understand your evaluation . You mention that It Is of our free will that we choose to Incarnate to what realm / plane / laws / conditions ... But . .. and it’s a big fat juicy butt .. . We find ourselves In a situation for use of a better word In that we “have” to experience a conditioned experience due to past thoughts and actions made previously . I get that we have the choice to Incarnate or not but we don’t get a choice In reference to what karma has decided for us which has been the result of our own doings . .. As mentioned In the game of chess analogy - Our first move In the game of life contains free will In totality . After the first move has been made, and depending what one’s action were can result In the Individual having restricted movement for the continuation of the game . (limited free will) .
“It could be said that jesus’s sacrifice was global or universal . A selfless act to help raise the consciousness on a grand scale” – yes – I think this is correct – but the additional complexity is added in that he was part of god, different to us, and so was performing god’s mission.
Nah - no - separation no-one Is above or below us . There Is only sameness . There Is only equality . There Is only One .
we have walked . . Not really mistakes at any level” – well…. If one tries to walk and falls then that has to be seen as a mistake, in some manner the attempt failed so there must have been some deviation from the ‘way to walk’ – a mistake. The thing is it teaches us what will not work and so we can avoid it next time.
Nah falling over whilst learning to walk Isn’t a mistake . We are not born ready to walk . Practice make perfect . I could say that meeting my ex misses was the biggest mistake of my life - but boy o boy was It a learning curve . I had already signed myself up for 10 years of sufferings prior to my Incarnation . None of my sufferings were her fault although she was the center piece from where the pain was emanating . No mistakes present In this well oiled universe .
“Distractions have there place” – it is actually more broad than this, for by calling them distractions one predefines the conditions needed, and also excludes the ‘distractions’ from the process amp. By doing this one limits oneself to just a small part of what we are, there is no need to do this, in fact it reduces the ability to find the full opportunity that is available.
If there were no distractions within life we would all be self centred . We would all be self realized . Duality distracts the one from the one . Duality has It’s place as does the illusions .
“What do you expect from your Individual journey Chris” – ha – good question, I think this is something we each must find for ourselves, at the very least I expect progression, evolution and a change in myself that takes me nearer the final objective. If you want to understand the final objective then you must look for it, following others does not yield the answer.
I think progression Is Inevitable whether one expects to or not . I think many lose the expectancy eventually . It’s In one way counterproductive in like If you meditate daily for 10 years and expect to reach enlightenment - then you never will .
“If God can be described as the energy that creates / manifests life as we know It to be “ – no – this is just shallow thinking, god is not ‘energy’ any more than a table is ‘wood’, and there is no reason to assume that it is only god’s energy that is used to create the universe – this is simply another short sighted way to include ‘us’ into god-mode. Energy exists, organising it is different to donating it.
ha hah - shallow thinking (lol) . You cannot separate “I’ from God or the table . There Is only “One” In/of the realization of what you are . The meaning behind the Oneness chris Is that there Is only One . There Is only One creator . There Is only One creation . There Is only “God” Present . Who else Is there . God Is the everything and the nothing . Why are you separating things from one another .
“are you then suggesting that through the evolution of these many Individual life forms that are not separate from the creator - that the nature of the energy that created could be changed . How?” – actually I am not suggesting that these many individual life forms that are not separate from the creator are what we are talking about – I think that we are separate – that is the whole point. If we were only part of god’s energy then we would not be able to change the energy, we pretty much would not be able to change anything, it would all be directed by god, and so god would be the puppet master, so on the contrary I see that we are separate, only if we are can we have free will, and only if we are can we find out how to deal with things like energy by ourselves.
You mentioned - You think that we are separate . Then In mind It will seem for you that you are separate from what you are . It Is your mind set that embraces separation that will keep you within It . Let It go and let what you are In .
x dazzle x
Hi Dazzle,
There is no evidence at all that we are part of god, this is a wish that people have that allows them to assume they are divine.
But is that not an assumption on the motives of others. We could just as easily assume that the motive of those who believe that they are not a part of god is because they have a wish to see themselves as seperate and thus better than all others. Without evidence one cannot assume the motive of someone believing themselves to be a part of god is because they wish to assume themselves to be divine. Any anyway, what's to say that all people are not divine, who is to make such a judgement? 😉
If you know some evidence that I am interested but I see no reason (given my limited knowledge) to simply assume that we are bit of god. The perceived wisdom is that god created us, or the universe at least, but that does not mean that god used parts of god to do so, and if you follow this idea then there are obvious reasons for not wanting to be puppet-master.
When you say "The perceived wisdom" what is that referring to exactly? Is that not just your own perception? Or is it part of some doctrine of belief? (I'm just interested)
You said earlier with the "mother" perception, that someone will always be a mother because of the "connection" and not just how they are perceived by another. So, it is said (for those who believe in the Christian faith - not myself per se), that we are created by God in the image of God. Is there not therefore a connection between us and God that, by your own reasoning of the "mother" means that we are always that creation of God, and thus a part of God? Also, such faith in God says that God is everywhere and within everything, so that too would ascribe to the concept of us all being a part of God.
Of course if one is attached to being part of god then this is a hard challenge, for how can we be separate from god? But as far as I have looked it is based on a wish.
Hmmm... *pondering*.... but if you don't believe yourself to be a part of God, then how can you have looked at it to know for sure it is simply a wish? I don't believe I am a fish, so I can only imagine in the mind what it must be like to be a fish. hehe!
Karma is one aspect of balance, and all systems require balance. Of course that is balance over a period, not immediate, but this balance does mean that what we give is what we will get back – this ‘treat you neighbour as you would wish to be treated’ is woven through many traditions – it is being lost in modern days society as people get more greedy and forget or will not see what it is doing to them.
How do we know all systems require balance? People question why, if god is all loving he allows evil to exist, and 'balance' is the excuse that is given... i.e. for there to be good there must be evil. In one respect this is correct... such that for us to recognise good we must subjectively perceive something as evil to compare it to, otherwise we cannot recognise the good... something that can be called the subjectiveness of quality (read "Zen and the Art of Motorcylce Maintenance" by Robert M Persig if you haven't already). However, one persons good is another persons evil and visa versa, so what is perceived as good is not a true good just as what is perceived as evil is not a true evil... it is purely subjective. We can therefore posit that it is perfectly possible for the universe to consist of nothing but good, however we would have to let go of the subjectiveness of quality, essentially meaning that we would not be able to recognise this good.... everything is good, without recognition... and this in itself is a form of 'balance' because there ceases to be a need for evil to exist to recognise the good, thus no need to create the subjectiveness of quality. You could call this perfect balance 😉
“We are not able to exercise free-will until we are free of conditions” – of course we are, but that will is within the laws that surround us, it simply means that we do exercise choice and the choice is not predestined.
We may well choose what conditions we will experience when we reincarnate, but that is not about lacking free will, for a start we have chosen, secondly it is about how we react and behave within those conditions that allows us to express who we are, each turn has free will options.
I think I understand what Daz was saying. For it to be "free" will, it must be "free", but whilst conditions exist, then those conditions prevent the freedom needed for it to be "free" will. We may perceive such other choices as free will, but whilst conditions are existing, then that free will is influenced by those conditions.
“It could be said that jesus’s sacrifice was global or universal . A selfless act to help raise the consciousness on a grand scale” – yes – I think this is correct – but the additional complexity is added in that he was part of god, different to us, and so was performing god’s mission.
I thought (correct me if I'm wrong) that Jesus was said to have seen himself as human and we teaching humankind to walk in his footsteps to also be children of God like himself, and that he perceived all of humankind as equal to himself. If he were the only one that was a part of God whilst everyone else isn't then he would have known the ultimate goal of his teachings would not have been possible. That seems to contradict this idea that Jesus was a part of God whilst everyone else isn't. Or perhaps I don't understand christian teachings as much as I thought. 😉
“we have walked . . Not really mistakes at any level” – well…. If one tries to walk and falls then that has to be seen as a mistake, in some manner the attempt failed so there must have been some deviation from the ‘way to walk’ – a mistake. The thing is it teaches us what will not work and so we can avoid it next time.
Not sure which bit this was referring to in the previous posts, but it reminds me of the part where you were talking of evolution and saying that for something to return to the start through the evolutionary process was a failure. That seems a bit of a one sided concept and isn't inclusive of all the principles of evolution. If some 'thing' evolves in two different ways, one being in a way that it has not been before and one apparently going back to a previous state, then should the 'new' way lead to a failure of survival but the previous state doesn't then going back to that previous state is anything but a failure. In the recursive nature of evolution, it may be that some 'thing' has to return to previous states of evolution in order to go down other evolutionary paths, and in fact it's the 'progressive' path that was the failure. That's the nature of evolution.
“Distractions have there place” – it is actually more broad than this, for by calling them distractions one predefines the conditions needed, and also excludes the ‘distractions’ from the process amp. By doing this one limits oneself to just a small part of what we are, there is no need to do this, in fact it reduces the ability to find the full opportunity that is available.
A "distraction" is subjective. A distraction can be considered as anything that leads us away from the needs of this present moment that we are attending to. It may be that it takes us away to something that isn't needed in this moment and that is what is typically meant by a distraction, as often we perceive the word as something negative. However it's also possible that a distraction may be leading to a need that is greater in this moment, and that is a positive distraction. The only "pre-defined condition" is that we expect to be meeting a particular need in this moment. The only limiting distraction is one that we already expect and that would only be if the mind is putting itself in the future with such expectations rather than meeting the needs of the moment. This is a self-limiting distraction that we create ourselves, and as you rightly say Chris, this reduces your ability to reach your full potential because you fail to meet the real needs.
“What do you expect from your Individual journey Chris” – ha – good question, I think this is something we each must find for ourselves, at the very least I expect progression, evolution and a change in myself that takes me nearer the final objective. If you want to understand the final objective then you must look for it, following others does not yield the answer.
But you could spend all your time "looking" for the goal and thus miss those things that present themselves in front of you that may be your real purpose in life. Surely, to assume that the purpose is some goal in the future is to always distract yourself from what is needed now? It also assumes that the "final objective" is something that doesn't already exist within you.
“If God can be described as the energy that creates / manifests life as we know It to be “ – no – this is just shallow thinking, god is not ‘energy’ any more than a table is ‘wood’, and there is no reason to assume that it is only god’s energy that is used to create the universe – this is simply another short sighted way to include ‘us’ into god-mode.
Without evidence, is it not just as short sighted and shallow thinking to assume that the universe is not simply god energy. :rolleyes:
I've mentioned this book before (on other threads) and I'm reading it at the minute, but if you're interested in quantum science and how it relates to consciousness and how that consciousness creates the universe, I can certainly recommend "The Self Aware Universe - How Consiousness Creates the Material World" by Amit Goswami. Helps if you already have some understanding of Quantum Mechanics etc. which I know you do have Chris, so I think you'd find it an interesting read.
Energy exists, organising it is different to donating it.
:confused: Explain please.
“are you then suggesting that through the evolution of these many Individual life forms that are not separate from the creator - that the nature of the energy that created could be changed . How?” – actually I am not suggesting that these many individual life forms that are not separate from the creator are what we are talking about – I think that we are separate – that is the whole point. If we were only part of god’s energy then we would not be able to change the energy, we pretty much would not be able to change anything, it would all be directed by god, and so god would be the puppet master, so on the contrary I see that we are separate, only if we are can we have free will, and only if we are can we find out how to deal with things like energy by ourselves.
A flower on a fruit tree turns to a fruit and the fruit creates a seed. The tree itself may provide the energy needed to do this, but the tree itself does not need to direct the fruit to grow, it is the flower, fruit etc. that uses the tree given energy to grow how it is 'designed' (to use the term loosely) to grow. The fruit can be removed from the tree and it can still grow and ripen after that. They are seperate and yet their energy is co-existent. So why should we be seperate? co-existing does not impart puppet mastery control over 'other' unless you choose to believe that.
All Love and Reiki Hugs
I thought (correct me if I'm wrong) that Jesus was said to have seen himself as human and we teaching humankind to walk in his footsteps to also be children of God like himself, and that he perceived all of humankind as equal to himself. If he were the only one that was a part of God whilst everyone else isn't then he would have known the ultimate goal of his teachings would not have been possible. That seems to contradict this idea that Jesus was a part of God whilst everyone else isn't. Or perhaps I don't understand christian teachings as much as I thought. 😉
Yep I agree Giles .
And that's why I would say that he forgave, who betrayed, persecuted, crucified him
"for they know not what they do"
meaning they are not seeing that what they do - Is In essence doing unto them .
x dazzle x