My findings on meditation

Me nether, and the reason is, because meditation came out of ambiguity and secrecy, not yesterday, but for a few decades now there is a process doing on, and along this process there are turning points, which make the process go into high speed, one of them is the integration of Meditation in Physiology. Time will tell if my prediction is right.

That is more than naive to think that it's now that meditation is integrating with body and mind.
Meditation has been forever integrated with functioning of mind (present term- psychology) and physiology since Patanjali, the sage of Yoga, a few millennia back....what is the essence of all those intricate postures? Ask yourself....to go deep in. To know thyself

Metaphysical has always been connected to your physiology and psychology....It cannot be any other way. Because life is an integrated phenomenon...of mind, body, senses, and the totality of our personal and collective reality....yoga, asanas (postures to allow, move and shift energy), pranayama (breath), mudras(energy flow through 5 fingers of hands)...what is it? Integrated approach...ain't new!
The esoteric knowledge that is already available to us is profound, subtle and vast as ocean....west is in throws of discovering it in bits nad bobs. That's why you keep chucking in amazing presumptions...

It's a folly to think that there is anything new going on....nothing is new mate! New titles, names, new twists but essentially the same principles that have been filtering for thousands of years.
It's all been there....our world is merging, so deep wisdom of east is becoming available world wide....and western wisdom is also being embraced world wide too.

So some good and some bad will come out of this integration...never one singularity. Both go together.

That is more than naive to think that

Naive or maybe I know some things that you don't?

Meditation is the path of letting go of your own choice, will and purpose, it doesn't mean God has no will and doesn't make choices; it doesn't say the world has no purpose. This attitude - as if there are no divisions, no purpose, and nothing is going anywhere, reminds me of a book I'm reading now: "Radical Zen". I simply think this attitude is wrong. It is nothing but a slow death. Meditation is the way of the tree of life. It gives me life. I simply can't identify with your attitude. Look how cynical you have become.

And also, there are many topics we can talk about, but my intention when I started this thread was to analyze the mechanism and dynamics of meditation, I want to stick to the original topic of this thread.

Naive or maybe I know some things that you don't?

Meditation is the path of letting go of your own choice, will and purpose, it doesn't mean God has no will and doesn't make choices; it doesn't say the world has no purpose. This attitude - as if there are no divisions, no purpose, and nothing is going anywhere, reminds me of a book I'm reading now: "Radical Zen". I simply think this attitude is wrong. It is nothing but a slow death. Meditation is the way of the tree of life. It gives me life. I simply can't identify with your attitude. Look how cynical you have become.

And also, there are many topics we can talk about, but my intention when I started this thread was to analyze the mechanism and dynamics of meditation, I want to stick to the original topic of this thread.

Daniel. A cop out, more balony. You have addressed none of the questions I posed. you cannot come up with one reasoning. You make assumptions, you cannot back up. You swerve beautifully when you cannot find answers.

Now you say, "Zen is slow death" more assumptions.
Truth is All life is slow death....
you don't feel comfortable with purposelessness of life...so do billions others. Mind desperately needs a purpose- a purpose to create a beautiful world, awaken, enlighten....you rather have a god who sits there making choices...

what's new? Purposeless is just about the most challenging thing for mind. You just confirmed it. ....not that there is anything wrong in that. It is natural. That's exactly what dying unto yourself...how many understand that? Not many? How many desire it? Even less.
That's what you project on zen....it is alive, more than you can imagine in your wildest imaginations.

If you think I am cynical....my heart is not open to your great wisdom....and some other random assumptions...good luck with your assumptions.

It was unfortunate for you that I engaged with this thread. A lot of trouble that brought for you...I am aware of that

I better let you get on with your intention to share great understanding with folks.

You have addressed none of the questions I posed.

Don't be offended, but I really feel I did my best to explain my point of view, maybe my best isn't good enough. In any case, we can continue this discussion in a private session, but on this thread it only creates confusion.

Don't be offended, but I really feel I did my best to explain my point of view, maybe my best isn't good enough. In any case, we can continue this discussion in a private session, but on this thread it only creates confusion.

you have not offended me in the least....you should try harder.
You imply you are confused on the thread, other poster on this thread are not confused.... Then what will make you anything else on a private session? your expression will be exactly same there...can't handle it in public...even less likely to handle what I have to say in private correspondence.

Whatever it is that you have in mind to offer me in way of understanding that you have and I haven't got, via private chat, I gratefully decline it.

In meditation we attempting to utilise our consciousness to perceive our other aspects of consciousness, basically we are attempting to gain an inner understanding beyond the limitations of our everyday thinking aspect of consciousness. which can only perceive that which it has currently encountered.

I would say the key to understanding the mechanism of Meditation is only one principle: Reduce distractions to gain a higher state of awareness. What is distraction? distraction is noise. we need to quiet noise to gain awareness, that is the simple formula.

First we reduce the noise coming from the senses, which is pulling our attentions to focus outwards. Now we gain inner awareness. But that's not the end of the road. The mind is another source of noise. The mind is full of conflict as a result of choices we have to make, this creates endless inner chattering, which pulls our attention to focus on the "everyday thinking aspects of consciousness", preventing us from going higher and getting inspiration from more divine aspects of our consciousness.

In order to quiet the mind, we need to stop dwelling on dualities, stop giving the mind choices to make. let it dwell with something simple that involves no decision making, and it will stop being noisy. So the first stage of meditation my not be so much about focusing, but more about dwelling on something simple; not complicated; no multitasking; do only one simple thing, so simple you can do it blindfolded; so simple you can do it unconsciously.

I believe that is what Sri Sri Ravi refers to in this video:

So meditation is not out there to kill the mind, the only living organism that can survive without a head is the cockroach. Meditation is there to purify the mind from conflict and make it whole again.

I would say the key to understanding the mechanism of Meditation is only one principle: Reduce distractions to gain a higher state of awareness. What is distraction? distraction is noise. we need to quiet noise to gain awareness, that is the simple formula.

First we reduce the noise coming from the senses, which is pulling our attentions to focus outwards. Now we gain inner awareness. But that's not the end of the road. The mind is another source of noise. The mind is full of conflict as a result of choices we have to make, this creates endless inner chattering, which pulls our attention to focus on the "everyday thinking aspects of consciousness", preventing us from going higher and getting inspiration from more divine aspects of our consciousness.

Have you to tried accepting and becoming one with whatever you become aware of rather than choosing to perceive it as a problem that requires side stepping?

Something only needs accepting once, but to reject something requires us to work at it all of the time, hence the endless chatter and the need to keep on meditating over and over again to try and stop it. 🙂

In order to quiet the mind, we need to stop dwelling on dualities, stop giving the mind choices to make. let it dwell with something simple that involves no decision making, and it will stop being noisy. So the first stage of meditation my not be so much about focusing, but more about dwelling on something simple; not complicated; no multitasking; do only one simple thing, so simple you can do it blindfolded; so simple you can do it unconsciously.

In order to quiet the mind we need to move beyond a judgmental way of being, which is what you are saying but mediation in itself has nothing to help us to move beyond a dualistic way of being, that needs addressing directly in a conscious manner when we are fully conscious and focused within the whole being, not just the bits that we judge to be right or pure etc.

OK let us create a meditative state, let us start by setting a distraction focus which is what we do in a guided meditation. Just focus upon the breath, feel it coming in and going out ......., that is a distraction focus to start a meditation, it gives the thinking aspect of consciousness something to do other than arguing with our other aspects of consciousness by distracting it. Now what do we want to achieve in this meditation, let us say that we want to be calm, OK let us add a second focus of intention to be - just focus upon the breath fell it coming in and going out, in and out, that is all, nothing else matters just the breath coming in and going out, now as you breath in just allow yourself to be filled and as you breath out just think of the word CALM and as you think of the word calm just feel yourself becoming calmer and more relaxed...

So we now have two focuses, one to create a distraction form the dis-ease we are experiencing within consciousness and the second focus to create an environment of calm relaxation for us to be, this will last the length of the meditation and for a short time afterward, like meditation it is something which is experienced whist we do it, then we move back into our normal way of being.

So meditation is not out there to kill the mind, the only living organism that can survive without a head is the cockroach. Meditation is there to purify the mind from conflict and make it whole again.

How long did it take you to achieve this way of being? 🙂

Have you to tried accepting and becoming one with whatever you become aware of rather than choosing to perceive it as a problem that requires side stepping?

I understood you Paul, I'm not fighting my thoughts anymore, nor am I filtering them or try to control them in any way, I don't interfere with the activity that is going on in any way, I'm just observing passively; I'm just aware. When I say "Reduce distractions" I don't mean actively rejecting anything. When you reject something, you have to focus on it, so it is distracting you even more. I don't have to reject someone speaking to me, in order to hear the birds that are singing in the background, I only have to stop focusing on him. But it is hard to do in your everyday life. In meditation you create a supporting environment for awareness. You sit in a quiet place, close your eyes, try to calm your mind - is it necessary? no, but you will more likely to get the hang of it, once you succeeded in getting into a state of awareness and got the taste of it. The effect of meditation lasts longer then the meditation session. the effect tends to fade after a while, but then I do another meditation session, and get my sanity back again. I'm not in a stage where I can be in that state 24/7. I might be able to do it in the future. I can see effects on my everyday life already. I've learned to let go even when I'm not meditating, if someone is angry at me and shouts at me, I used to have the urge to answer him back, now I really feel sorry for him, that he is so agitated for nothing and suffering, and I have the luxury of knowing how to stay calm.

How long did it take you to achieve this way of being?

I must say you helped me a lot, more then everyone else. There is a difference between knowing the path and walking it, I'm not sure I walk the path the way I should, but thanks to you I can very much say I know the path.

Thanks Paul, and thanks Giles.

And thank you Jnani - you've helped me sharpen my point of view by comparing it it with yours.

let us start by setting a distraction focus which is what we do in a guided meditation.

If the mediation object is for concentration, then why concentrating hard on the meditation object is bad for gaining the meditative state? (in my experience, and so I was taught).

I can't accept that the meditation object is an object of distraction (Changed my mind on that one). How can distraction bring you to a state of awareness when they are 2 opposites? How can any action support a state of awareness if we have to make a choice in order to make an action?

Osho said awareness and watchfulness are the same thing. I don't think so. Observing is also an action. You have to do something in order to watch, it involves an effort.

My understanding is that the idea behind using a meditation object, in the first stage of meditation, is to engage in a very simple activity that involves almost no decision making, because the decision making is what makes the mind noisy, and if we want to reduce the amount of noise in the mind, to have less cause for distraction, we need to let the mind be occupied with an activity that does not demand much decision making (not reject anything, just engage in). That's why concentrating hard on the meditation object is bad for gaining the meditative state - it's not what the meditation object is about.

Many have heard of a one pointed focus. By paying attention to one's focus one eventually tames the monkey mind.

How many have had something on their mind 24/7 to realize that that they have forgotten something else.

It's the same effect.

Many can relate to their focus or attention to something that means something to them or has some positive vibe about it.

Over time one's focus or attention burns itself out eventually so certain states are experienced without the need for them.

If the mediation object is for concentration, then why concentrating hard on the meditation object is bad for gaining the meditative state? (in my experience, and so I was taught).

We do not have to concentrate hard to maintain a focus once it is set, the focus is only there to stop us going off on a tangent, which is what often happens if we have not got a purpose for the meditation, do not get me wrong here I also meditate without a focus of intent, just to chill out if I have been over focusing on something (often when doing something new or learning how to run a new computer programme and need a break to clear my thoughts ready for a fresh onslaught. 🙂

I can't accept that the meditation object is an object of distraction (Changed my mind on that one). How can distraction bring you to a state of awareness when they are 2 opposites? How can any action support a state of awareness if we have to make a choice in order to make an action?

Everything begins and ends with a thought, without a thought there can be no action, when thought and action are one, things flow seamlessly without resistance, in the absence of resistance, little if any effort is requires, we can simply choose to be.

But if we are experiencing the ramifications of inner divisional conflicts, then we are experiencing constant noise within our consciousness, when we are working etc, it becomes background chatter which we can push further into the background to allow us to function, it even invades our dreams.

There are only two ways to stop the chatter, we either resolve the inner divisional conflict so the dualistic arguments stop by healing it with acceptance, or we have to create a distraction of focus, focus upon the breath and become it, it is the most common distraction for meditation and many therapies, or make a sound and become the sound, they both have the same effect of distracting the thinking aspect of consciousness from engaging with the background chatter and replacing it with something else so that we can attain a singular focus rather than a dualistic one for a time.

Osho said awareness and watchfulness are the same thing. I don't think so. Observing is also an action. You have to do something in order to watch, it involves an effort.

Awareness and watchfulness are both actions, to choose to stop thinking or doing, or to become more aware of everything which is happening around us whilst doing something else requires both though and action, it requires us to set a thought focus to work towards the action of becoming more aware of the Now.

Consciousness is not complicated, it is very simple, we have either chosen oneness within our consciousness so it flows together to create inner peace and harmony, or we have chosen to be dualistic and divided our consciousness so that it all works in opposition to itself and we experience inner divisional conflicts, stress and disharmony.

My understanding is that the idea behind using a meditation object, in the first stage of meditation, is to engage in a very simple activity that involves almost no decision making, because the decision making is what makes the mind noisy, and if we want to reduce the amount of noise in the mind, to have less cause for distraction, we need to let the mind be occupied with an activity that does not demand much decision making (not reject anything, just engage in). That's why concentrating hard on the meditation object is bad for gaining the meditative state - it's not what the meditation object is about.

Yes that is what I said, just breath and focus upon the breath, it requires a thought to set the focus of action that will allow us to set our thinking mind to the task of focusing upon the breath (this sets up the distraction from what it was engaged with, which was the endless conflicts ), so the mind is now singularly focused upon what we have told it to focus upon which is the breath or whatever focus we have set.

Now that you have achieved a state of singular focus, what do you want to do now? No thought = no action. 😉

Now that you have achieved a state of singular focus, what do you want to do now? No thought = no action.

Now that the mind is quiet - no dilemmas to resolve, no conflicts as to what I should or should not do - now that thought and action are flowing together as one, without friction or doubt, the activity can keep going by itself, on autopilot, without you having to pay attention to it, and you are free to shift your attention to higher aspects of yourself and draw inspiration.

Now that the mind is quiet - no dilemmas to resolve, no conflicts as to what I should or should not do - now that thought and action are flowing together as one, without friction or doubt, the activity can keep going by itself, on autopilot, without you having to pay attention to it, and you are free to shift your attention to higher aspects of yourself and draw inspiration.

So now that you have utilised the distraction focus that has created the meditative state and you are making a choice to move beyond the first focus and utilise the second intentional focus which is to communicate with self, so you have without being aware of it set both a distraction focus and the intended reason (meditation focus) for performing the meditation.

Now communicating with self is the same as communicating with others, it requires thought and action in equal measures within consciousness, granted they often appear to flow seamlessly when we are in the right frame of mind, but they are flowing all the same, we just need to make a choice to observe self being both the doer and the observer at the same time. 🙂

you are making a choice to move beyond the first focus and utilise the second intentional focus which is to communicate with self

I don't think that the second focus is intentional. I don't think it is a focus at all. It seems to me that the state of awareness, is a natural state that happens whenever you're not distracted by noise. Trying to establish it intentionally can even prevent it from happening. Awareness is a state of natural balance, if the disturbance stops, balance is restored naturally. I said "and you are free to shift your attention to higher aspects of yourself and draw inspiration", but the choice of words was not so accurate. I would say: once your attention is not consumed by the noise, you suddenly become aware of many things that where there all along, in the background, hidden by the noise.

All consciousness of each individual is emanating from one source, and is longing to go back to that source, so the spiritual journey within happens naturally, there is nothing you have to do. Consciousness is naturally gravitating inwards, all you need to do is remove the obstacles that stand in its way; all you need to do is pave the way.

granted they often appear to flow seamlessly when we are in the right frame of mind, but they are flowing all the same, we just need to make a choice to observe self being both the doer and the observer at the same time.

But this state in which we can observe ourselves being the doer and the observer at the same time, can only happen when we are in this state of "flowing", it can't happen when there is inner conflict consuming our attention, so aren't you rally saying what I said -- only when doing accrues on it's own, is when we can observe it from without. And if so, then why would you not call it the subconscious mind? Is the subconscious mind not our autopilot?

There are only two ways to stop the chatter, we either resolve the inner divisional conflict so the dualistic arguments stop by healing it with acceptance, or we have to create a distraction of focus,

How do we resolve the conflict if not by doing something else? Let's say I have to decide whether to marry a woman, or buy a house, or do any action that involves hard choices; any action that is something new, and can't be done based on previous experience, how can I just resolve it by "acceptance", what do you mean by that? How is it done practically?

I don't think that the second focus is intentional. I don't think it is a focus at all. It seems to me that the state of awareness, is a natural state that happens whenever you're not distracted by noise. Trying to establish it intentionally can even prevent it from happening. Awareness is a state of natural balance, if the disturbance stops, balance is restored naturally. I said "and you are free to shift your attention to higher aspects of yourself and draw inspiration", but the choice of words was not so accurate. I would say: once your attention is not consumed by the noise, you suddenly become aware of many things that where there all along, in the background, hidden by the noise.

All consciousness of each individual is emanating from one source, and is longing to go back to that source, so the spiritual journey within happens naturally, there is nothing you have to do. Consciousness is naturally gravitating inwards, all you need to do is remove the obstacles that stand in its way; all you need to do is pave the way.

But in order to shift your awareness, you need to make a choice to do so, that involves a thought, as I keep telling people everything begins and ends with a thought.

I am well acquainted with restoring people's balance by healing the inner divisional conflicts, it is how I learnt to heal myself and other people back into wholeness.

Yes we are all one within consciousness, the illusion of separateness is what makes this life experience what it is, when we embrace oneness through self acceptance, then we become whole. 🙂

But this state in which we can observe ourselves being the doer and the observer at the same time, can only happen when we are in this state of "flowing", it can't happen when there is inner conflict consuming our attention, so aren't you rally saying what I said -- only when doing accrues on it's own, is when we can observe it from without. And if so, then why would you not call it the subconscious mind? Is the subconscious mind not our autopilot?

Yes we need to become whole in order to see the full picture, where we are both the doer and the observer, yes we need to utilise self acceptance in an open and non-judgmental way to heal the inner conflicts that we set up within self, then yes we do not have the endless unrest and dis-ease that most people experience most of the time.

I do not call our other aspects of consciousness our subconscious mind, because that does not depict the reality of what is one consciousness functioning together to create our life experience, when we become whole our other aspects of consciousness are also observed working together with our everyday thinking aspect of consciousness, so they are no longer outside of our normal perceptions, they are all there and we can perceive the way we function with them in a conscious manner from within. 🙂

How do we resolve the conflict if not by doing something else? Let's say I have to decide whether to marry a woman, or buy a house, or do any action that involves hard choices; any action that is something new, and can't be done based on previous experience, how can I just resolve it by "acceptance", what do you mean by that? How is it done practically?

Now you are asking the right question again. 🙂

It often appears that it is easier to create a diversion than to tackle an inner conflict head on and resolve it, which is why so many therapies are based upon diversionary tactics, the reality is that once we understand how we function within consciousness and what an inner divisional conflict is, then we become aware of how we create and heal them.

To create an inner divisional conflict requires us to become dualistic, as soon as we attempt to divide self we create an inner divisional conflict, the silly thing about them is that every time we choose to set one up, we are asked if we are sure we want to do that and we have to say yes to self before our consciousness sets up the division within self, now as you have correctly assessed our consciousness is one consciousness, it does not appreciate being divided against self, it want us to be whole, so it uses every opportunity to remind us and make us aware that we are not as we should be, hence the endless chatter.

One of the main attributes of consciousness is that everything begins and ends with a thought, so it has taken one thought to set up an inner divisional conflict, so guess how we heal it? We make another choice to change our minds, the problem with this is that we seem to have an aversion to admitting to self that we made a mistake, we will exasperate the conflict by arguing that I was right and whatever else was wrong, so I will not budge from my stance, to heal this requires us to let go of whatever the judgment was that set up divisional conflict by accepting self in an open and non-judgmental way.

Everything which we have ever experienced is stored within our aspects of consciousness, unfortunately we often have more than one memory of each experience, we have the record of the actual experience which is the one we should utilise, but we often choose to judge the experience once it has finished, now if the way we choose to interpret the experience does not tally with the actual record of the experience, we will set up an inner divisional conflict between what was and the way we want to remember it, we will be asked if we are sure we want to do this, if we say yes then the division is created within our consciousness.

Again to heal it we need to simply accept the actual experience in an open and non-judgmental way, this will heal the inner divisional conflict, it is only when we choose to judge and reject self that we utilise a thought to set up an inner divisional conflict, we cannot change that until we choose to stop judging and rejecting self and set up an environment of self acceptance.

In any situation we always have a choice, we can accept in an open and non-judgmental way for wholeness, or we can choose to judge and reject for division and conflict, the choice is ours to make, in this we always have a free will and with that free will comes with personal responsibility, that is irrespective of if we choose to accept or reject that, we are always responsible for our own thoughts and any actions that manifest from them.

I hope that clarifies it a bit for you. 🙂

but we often choose to judge the experience once it has finished, now if the way we choose to interpret the experience does not tally with the actual record of the experience, we will set up an inner divisional conflict

If I understood you correctly, what you are basically saying is that every conflict, every doubt, every hesitation that creates friction between thought and action, and prevents us from being it the "flowing mode" all the time, which is the healthy mode, is a conflict between what we have actually experienced, and the judgment we have placed on it, or to be precise - a misinterpretation of reality, that happens as a result of judging it. When we judge the facts in terms of good an bad, it can distort our perception of what really exists, because we don't want bad things to exist, therefore once we choose to place judgment on the facts, we are biased. The solution is to stop judging. If you stop judging, new conflict cannot arise, and any conflict that was already there, loses its foundation. You simply stick to experiencing reality, moment to moment, then everything flows.

The first time I had a deep meditation experience, I knew that it happens because I've stopped judging for a while. How did I know it? Coming out of the meditation I felt so good, and when ever I started judging, this feeling started to fade away, and a negative vibe was taking over.

You are saying that every conflict in the mind, which creates hesitation and doubt, is a result of judgment. If that's not what you're saying, then how is your answer answering my question? I was asking how do you resolve real issues, hard and confusing decisions and choices we sometimes have to make in life, just by acceptance and being non-judgmental? And you explained me how by judging conflict is created, and how by dropping judgment, the conflict ends. But how does the example you bring relate to hard choices like should I or should I not marry this woman? How by being non-judgmental such a conflict can be resolved? Unless what you say is that all conflicts are, at their core, misinterpretation of reality, created by personal involvement created by judgment. This is my commentary, if its not what you mean than please clarify your meaning.

And another question: if we stop judging, do we stop making choices at all, or do our choices become clear and straight forward - there is no more confusion/doubt/hesitation/conflict involved in those choices?

You are saying that every conflict in the mind, which creates hesitation and doubt, is a result of judgment. If that's not what you're saying, then how is your answer answering my question? I was asking how do you resolve real issues, hard and confusing decisions and choices we sometimes have to make in life, just by acceptance and being non-judgmental? And you explained me how by judging conflict is created, and how by dropping judgment, the conflict ends. But how does the example you bring relate to hard choices like should I or should I not marry this woman? How by being non-judgmental such a conflict can be resolved? Unless what you say is that all conflicts are, at their core, misinterpretation of reality, created by personal involvement created by judgment. This is my commentary, if its not what you mean than please clarify your meaning.

An inner divisional conflict arises when two or more conflicting thought patterns and/or beliefs arise within consciousness at the same time, this means that there is already a conflict in operation which is clouding the thinking and decision making progress, in stead of being free to choose if we wish to do something or not, we have created a belief that we should or we should not do this or that because it is the right or wrong thing to do, when we try and think a different way or do something that is in opposition to our underlying core belief because a situation requires it, a divisional conflict arises within consciousness and we become undecided, we know we should do one thing but are driven to do something else.

To move beyond this requires the same solution, we need to address the underlying judgmental core belief and replace it with self acceptance in an open and non judgmental way, we are then free to make a choice based upon the merits of each situation and what is required within that individual situation in an open and free way, this does not stop us from making mistakes, but we are free to choose to make mistakes and learn from them. 🙂

And another question: if we stop judging, do we stop making choices at all, or do our choices become clear and straight forward - there is no more confusion/doubt/hesitation/conflict involved in those choices?

In the absence of an underlying judgmental core belief, we are free to choose based upon what is, not forced to choose based upon what we believe something to be, there is a big difference between having to do the right pre-judgemental thing whether we like it or not or being free to choose what we think is the most appropriate course of action to take in this situation, this does not give us all of the answers, we still sometimes suck it and see, but we are free to change our minds if we do not like the course of action we have chosen we just change direction and try another tack and see how we get on that way.

Basically when we move from judgment to acceptance we set ourselves free to choose, but that freedom comes at a cost for we have to embrace the personally responsible (which was already there) for our thoughts and the things that manifest from them, we can no longer blame others for our own choices, but we are happy to be. 😉

So if we use the example of a choice whether to marry a woman, it doesn't mean I don't make the choice, but the choice would be driven by my own true inner will, to find a nice companion for life, instead of being pushed by should's and should not's. like: I should marry a girl from a respectable family, to please my parents. or I should choose a girl from a rich family, because I need the money, or even a choice motivated by lust, with no true friendship - all these are not truly free choices.

What you are calling "patterns of thought and beliefs" that are generating should's and should not's, is what I call "conditioning", so we are basically on the same page here, took me time to understand what you mean.

In order to judge, you need a book of laws - a moral code. If you make a decision to stop judging, the book of laws becomes useless/Irrelevant, that's how you move beyond the conditioning.

Now I see that you are right, this flowing mode in which we come out of conflict is not because the subconscious mind is fully in charge, it is because it has lost all its grip on us, and our actions are fully in tune with our inner being. These laws/conditioning are written on the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind can only execute programs, like a computer. If you stop judging, the subconscious mind is out of the picture.

Thank you very very much, very important understanding.

Another question: You say awareness also require thought and action. I gave you an example for moving from a state of focus to a state of awareness: Someone is speaking and you are focused on his speech. If you stop focusing on him, you suddenly become aware of the birds singing in the background. You didn't have to do something in order to hear the bird singing. You had to stop doing something; you had to stop focusing. Yes it is true you had to think you want to stop focusing, and you had to change something in your behavior in order to realize this thought, but the final result - which is awareness - is not a direct result of your action, don't you agree?

So if we use the example of a choice whether to marry a woman, it doesn't mean I don't make the choice, but the choice would be driven by my own true inner will, to find a nice companion for life, instead of being pushed by should's and should not's. like: I should marry a girl from a respectable family, to please my parents. or I should choose a girl from a rich family, because I need the money, or even a choice motivated by lust, with no true friendship - all these are not truly free choices.

Yes and no, if you have been taught that it is wrong to marry one type of person and right to marry another type of person and you have embraced this as a future judgmental choice, then that is what will drive your decision when you think it is time to marry someone, but if you have not got this, then you might still choose someone based upon lust which would be a present choice based upon what you are experiencing right now, if that makes sense. 🙂

What you are calling "patterns of thought and beliefs" that are generating should's and should not's, is what I call "conditioning", so we are basically on the same page here, took me time to understand what you mean.

I have seen the word 'conditioning' being banded about as thought we are born with this, I think a better terminology for 'conditioning' would be 'self conditioning' because we do this to ourselves, it is always personal choices based upon our personal perceptions as opposed to something we have no choice in.

In order to judge, you need a book of laws - a moral code. If you make a decision to stop judging, the book of laws becomes useless/Irrelevant, that's how you move beyond the conditioning.

In a way, yes, we have to transform the way we are, but just deciding that we want to change does not necessarily make it so, which you have already realised when you asked 'why is it so hard to change'.

Now I see that you are right, this flowing mode in which we come out of conflict is not because the subconscious mind is fully in charge, it is because it has lost all its grip on us, and our actions are fully in tune with our inner being. These laws/conditioning are written on the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind can only execute programs, like a computer. If you stop judging, the subconscious mind is out of the picture.

Thank you very very much, very important understanding.

You are welcome, if you remember I said that we have several aspects of consciousness, one of them I call our core way of being aspect of consciousness, I call it that simply because that is its function. 🙂

Now this aspect of consciousness like all of our aspects of consciousness works in a singular way, it is in computer talk our prime directive, when we make choices about who we are and what we believe to be right or wrong etc, it is formed within this aspect of consciousness, the problem is we can't put two opposing beliefs into this aspect of consciousness at the same time, for that would divide it and stop it being singular, to change what we have already let us say programmed into it, we need to take control, we need to become the administrator with the right password to make these type of changes, hope that makes sense. 🙂

So to just say I am no longer going to be judgmental, requires us to be checking the way we think all of the time, because we have a prime directive already in place that is working to make us judge things in accordance with what we have already decreed, this is where your meditation can come into play, but not in the way that you have been using it before, this time you need to do it with purpose. Start your meditation as normal as you feel yourself become focused, state your intention to address your inner divisional conflicts, in a while you should start to perceive the things you need to change, they do not all come at the same time, the biggest conflict will come to mind first, once you are aware of what it is and when you formed it, you now need to tell self what you want to do about it, simply you need to change the way you originally embraced it, and just choose to accept it in an open and non-judgmental way, ask for confirmation that this has been achieved and that is enough for one go, that conflict has been healed. 🙂

I will answer the last question in another post so that this one does not get too long to post.

Another question: You say awareness also require thought and action. I gave you an example for moving from a state of focus to a state of awareness: Someone is speaking and you are focused on his speech. If you stop focusing on him, you suddenly become aware of the birds singing in the background. You didn't have to do something in order to hear the bird singing. You had to stop doing something; you had to stop focusing. Yes it is true you had to think you want to stop focusing, and you had to change something in your behavior in order to realize this thought, but the final result - which is awareness - is not a direct result of your action, don't you agree?

You have answered this one yourself, please remember that everything begins and ends with a thought, without a thought there can be no action, to choose to ignore a person who is speaking to you is a thought and action, you were already aware of what the person was saying to you, to shift your awareness and listen to something else requires you to make a choice, a choice requires a thought to drive it, the choice is then actioned so that you can tune out the speaker and focus upon something else (the something else was there all of the time), you have simply used a thought or change the action of being aware from one thing to another thing.

Stopping doing something is not a passive action, it requires a thought to drive it, our awareness is governed by our thoughts, we choose what we wish to be aware of or more to the point we choose which things we do not wish to be aware of, our awareness reaches far beyond what our physical senses allow us to perceive through, again this is more of the self imposed restrictions we place upon self, but that will become clearer in time. 🙂

but if you have not got this, then you might still choose someone based upon lust which would be a present choice based upon what you are experiencing right now

That's why I like using the word "conditioning" when I relate to what is conflicting our free will, because I'm not sure that only thought patterns and beliefs are limiting our free choice. Life experiences can cause trauma as a result of extreme pain, or addiction as a result of extreme pleasure. These are not thought patterns or beliefs, but they can create a delusional conditioning which is limiting what we perceive to be possible for us to choose. Don't you think so?

Another question: technically, there is another way to resolve the conflict between our "shoulds and shouldn'ts", and our free choice/will -- by totally subdue our will to those "shoulds and shouldn'ts". If we don't consider what we lose for doing so, is the final result the same? Was the conflict resolved just the same? Are we in "flow mode"? What do you think?

to shift your awareness and listen to something else requires you to make a choice

Do I have to shift my awareness? can't I simply be open to everything without focusing on anything?

That's why I like using the word "conditioning" when I relate to what is conflicting our free will, because I'm not sure that only thought patterns and beliefs are limiting our free choice. Life experiences can cause trauma as a result of extreme pain, or addiction as a result of extreme pleasure. These are not thought patterns or beliefs, but they can create a delusional conditioning which is limiting what we perceive to be possible for us to choose. Don't you think so?

An event that gives us an experience of trauma lasts as long as it needs to heal the symptoms, you have an accident and break your leg, you experience great pain and in a while the break is mended and you can walk about again without pain, an event that we perceive as a pleasant experience lasts as long as it lasts and then ends, we have to understand that any event that allows us to experience is completely neutral, the event that we experience does not know if we are experiencing pain or pleasure, it is our interpretation of what is that makes one person enjoy something whilst another person thinks that it was terrible.

We mainly perceive things through the underlying thought patterns and belief that we have chosen to create within self (our self conditioning), our core way of being will put forward our interpretation of the way we have chosen to perceive reality all of the time, this is why we can pre-judge something before we have had any experience of it, but we need to experience something to fully understand what it is.

I know what you are saying, but all of our aspects of consciousness consist of thought, a belief is a thought, an idea is a thought, intuition is a thought, awareness is a thought, everything begins and ends with a thought, there is nothing but thought within consciousness, everything else that we have as in senses and the things we feel is created within our physical bodies in response to our thought patterns and beliefs. 😉

Another question: technically, there is another way to resolve the conflict between our "shoulds and shouldn'ts", and our free choice/will -- by totally subdue our will to those "shoulds and shouldn'ts". If we don't consider what we lose for doing so, is the final result the same? Was the conflict resolved just the same? Are we in "flow mode"? What do you think?

Unfortunately this is a common misconception that we should fight self with willpower rather than embracing self (this is similar to the medical approach to health), we cannot possibly create wholeness through division, we can only create greater divisional conflict and dissatisfaction with self, nothing is resolved, the conflict has increased rather than being healed, all we have succeeded in doing is to reduce our perception of self within our everyday thinking aspect of consciousness (out of mind), but the main aspects of our consciousness are experiencing greater turmoil which will be reflected into our life experience.

There is however another way to resolve inner divisional conflict and that is through the help of a healer who has learnt to remove their own inner divisional conflicts and knows how to become one with others to remove their conflicts for them as long as they are happy to be healed into wholeness!

Do I have to shift my awareness? can't I simply be open to everything without focusing on anything?

Have you considered what everything is????

Have you considered what everything is????

No, tell me what it is?

In my experience the attention is functioning like an eye - the mind's eye if you will. You can shift the target of your eye from one thing to another, and you can shift your attention target from one thing to another. You can focus you eye on a very narrow area, and you widen your filed-of-view (FOV) to cover a large area. You can focus your attention on a very narrow area, and you can widen your "attention bubble" to include a large area. I can even detach the focus of attention, from the focus of the eye, by paying attention to what happens in the corner of the eye. So technically I don't see why I can't widen my "attention bubble" to include everything. It might not be simple but technically it should be possible.

So to just say I am no longer going to be judgmental, requires us to be checking the way we think all of the time, because we have a prime directive already in place that is working to make us judge things in accordance with what we have already decreed, this is where your meditation can come into play, but not in the way that you have been using it before, this time you need to do it with purpose. Start your meditation as normal as you feel yourself become focused, state your intention to address your inner divisional conflicts, in a while you should start to perceive the things you need to change, they do not all come at the same time, the biggest conflict will come to mind first, once you are aware of what it is and when you formed it, you now need to tell self what you want to do about it, simply you need to change the way you originally embraced it, and just choose to accept it in an open and non-judgmental way, ask for confirmation that this has been achieved and that is enough for one go, that conflict has been healed.

Isn't that some form of suggestion? like in NLP or Guided Imagery?

Isn't that some form of suggestion? like in NLP or Guided Imagery?

You cannot make suggestions to self if you wish to implement a change, you need to take control and demand that a change is instigated, the same way we implemented an inner divisional conflict in the first place, as I keep on saying everything begins and ends with a thought, when I am removing someone else's divisional conflicts, I do not speak to them apart from checking if they have a response to the trigger once it is removed, I am treating consciousness directly within consciousness, utilising the principle of us all being one within consciousness and everything begins and ends with a thought.

utilising the principle of us all being one within consciousness and everything begins and ends with a thought

Principles and concepts you have formed in many years of experience, can't just be shared with others, they will be empty words for me since I don't have your experience. I can only understand you if you use practical examples and technical distinctions. If you give me an example of how technically a suggestion works - what you say and do and what actuality happens when you do it. And on the other hand you give a practical example how you are working, then I can relate to it.

In some cases I do understand your ideas because my personal experience is sufficient for it, but in this case it is too far ahead of me.

The first question of my last post was very technical and down to earth, why can't I hear many sounds all at once? Like when I go to a concert, there are many tools playing all at once, and I enjoy them all.

If I want to decode the experience - give it an interpretation - like when I'm listening to a speech, I have to be focused on one speaker, but if I only what to experience, in a very simple and innocent way, why do I have to have a certain direction or focus?

Principles and concepts you have formed in many years of experience, can't just be shared with others, they will be empty words for me since I don't have your experience. I can only understand you if you use practical examples and technical distinctions. If you give me an example of how technically a suggestion works - what you say and do and what actuality happens when you do it. And on the other hand you give a practical example how you are working, then I can relate to it.

In some cases I do understand your ideas because my personal experience is sufficient for it, but in this case it is too far ahead of me.

A suggestion backed up with focused intention can go a long way to altering the way that someone thinks as long as it is not in direct opposition to what they want, so if someone goes for nlp, hypnotherapy or guided meditation etc, they are already looking for help to change something but do not know how to implement the change within self, so they are prepared to accept the suggestion given to them in a relaxed state of consciousness, which is then enforced with directional triggers etc, so instead of doing what I suggested you do within meditation they are guided to do it and it is triggered with statements like 'you will do this because you have chosen to do it, it is for your own good' etc.

That is working through the physical senses to interact with consciousness, it has to pass through the body into the everyday thinking aspect of consciousness in order to get to the other aspects of consciousness, everything is having to be interpreted in order for the message to be acted upon and become effective.

Now let me see if I can give you an analogy to represent consciousness within the oneness of consciousness and the oneness or fullness of self:

Picture a vast body of liquid, this represents the oneness of consciousness, it is one body of liquid.

Now picture lots of individual bubbles suspended in that liquid, this represents individual life experiences that are happening within the oneness, so we are part of those bubbles together with all the other conscious beings that are in experience.

So you are one of those bubbles, in order for you to function in this experience as a human being, you require certain aspects of consciousness to allow you to create your life experience, these are formed from the consciousness that you are when you are the body of liquid, that aspect of consciousness creates a shield or bubble to contain the other aspects of consciousness you need to function here.

So you are born into experience within your bubble with several aspects of consciousness and one that is maintaining the bubble to shield your awareness from the oneness of consciousness which is the liquid, you start to experience and make choices that will guide your life experience toward allowing you to fulfil the experience those choices are moving you towards creating, some of these choices will have been made when experiencing great anger, pain or sadness etc, these are the choices that separated your fullness of being from oneness into duality and created the inner divisional conflicts, these are the choices that allows you to create ongoing pain and suffering or pleasure beyond the experience that happened and no longer exists outside of your consciousness (thoughts), yet it is your thoughts which is creating your life experience within your bubble.

Now to you, you are alone, you are separate from other beings within your bubble of isolation, but a part of you resides within the oneness of consciousness which is the liquid along with everyone else's aspect of consciousness, so when you think of experiencing something, that thought is perceived within the oneness of consciousness which will act as one to help you to experience that, there will be other beings who are also thinking along the same lines as you, you will be brought together so that you can all fulfil you choice which began as an idea (a thought) so that you and they can be in experience.

We have a blue print written in the sky, on a clear dark night we see the stars, they represent us, the blackness between the stars represents the oneness of consciousness which connects us all together, we are not really separate, it is an illusion that gives us free reign to create a persona built upon the way we have chosen to perceive ourselves.

So when you say I would like to become aware of everything, you are thinking upon your physical senses and I am thinking of the fullness of everything within the oneness of consciousness, now because we are all one, our awareness reaches far beyond the remit of our physical senses, we become aware of danger long before we get close enough to be able to pick it up with our physical senses, we can become aware of what someone else is experiencing who is in another city or country from us, because we have formed a conscious bond with them, they are part of our chosen circle we have allowed ourselves to connect with them beyond the physical, we have a conscious connection through the oneness of consciousness.

The first question of my last post was very technical and down to earth, why can't I hear many sounds all at once? Like when I go to a concert, there are many tools playing all at once, and I enjoy them all.

If I want to decode the experience - give it an interpretation - like when I'm listening to a speech, I have to be focused on one speaker, but if I only what to experience, in a very simple and innocent way, why do I have to have a certain direction or focus?

You can train your physical senses to do all sorts of things but there are limitations to how much information they can process at one time, that is why in a crowded room we can focus upon different conversations that are going on whist keeping a lookout for things that we can relate to, all of the conversations are happening together, we are aware they are happening but we can't process that amount of information, so we screen it to focus upon what will interest us.

When we move beyond our judgmental way of being, we are free to listen without bios, we do not have an ulterior reason for listening, we are not judging what they are saying to see if it is in opposition to our own judgmental beliefs, we are just happy to share in their sharing of their experiences, much like we do when we listen to a comic on the stage, they are saying all sorts of things that would normally trigger a judgmental response, but people give themselves permission to relax and enjoy themselves, so rather than getting angry at what the speaker is saying, they get happy and laugh.

The first answer is long and I will have read it carefully for some time before I can relate to it, that is why I'll relate to the more simple issues of my second question.

You can train your physical senses to do all sorts of things but there are limitations to how much information they can process at one time,

I'm not talking about processing 2 things at one time, I'm talking about not processing at all, just experiencing - that is the goal.

all of the conversations are happening together, we are aware they are happening but we can't process that amount of information, so we screen it to focus upon what will interest us

Exactly, that is what I'm saying, if you don't focus on one particular thing, the mind can't process anything, that is exactly the point, Therefore... if you want to stop the mind from processing your experience you need to stop focusing - that's exactly what I mean - in order to get to a state of "no mind" the trick is, stop focusing, just be aware, meaning: experience the experience as an innocent child.

What happens then?

The mind cannot grasp the experience unless we first process it and decode it. The mind knows nothing else but the interpretation of the actual experience. Like a computer can't grasp anything but numbers 1 and 0. If you don't translate the information coming from the sensors - a scanner or a camera - into bytes, the computer can't handle it.

And if the mind is out of the way, out goes judging, you become Innocent like a child who knows no good or bad. The mind is the one doing the judging, and he is now paralyzed.

So yes, everything starts and ends with a thought. We need to form a thought and act in order to go into the "no mind state", and we have to form a thought and action to come out of the "no-mind state", but in the state itself, the mind is quiet.

If you want to accept my explanation, fine, but if you want to reject it, please, be specific. Find specific flaws in my arguments, don't use abstract ideas, many of them are meaningless to me, so they won't help me understand.

Thank you for your time.:)

I'm not talking about processing 2 things at one time, I'm talking about not processing at all, just experiencing - that is the goal.

You have already experienced that, though since you did not have anything to relate it to, it was meaningless at that time, you had this in the womb and at a very young age, just simple awareness with no understanding of what you experienced. We cannot unlearn what we have already learnt, if you hear a loud bang, then you have past experiences of loud bangs that will come to mind, you can't put the genie back in the bottle once it is released. 😉

Exactly, that is what I'm saying, if you don't focus on one particular thing, the mind can't process anything, that is exactly the point, Therefore... if you want to stop the mind from processing your experience you need to stop focusing - that's exactly what I mean - in order to get to a state of "no mind" the trick is, stop focusing, just be aware, meaning: experience the experience as an innocent child.

What happens then?

You already know the answer to that, you did not arrive on this planet as an adult, you went through a period of being innocent and thinking that way, you cannot go back to it once more, you have gained insight and experience since then, everything you become aware of has some meaning to your past experiences, telling self that you do not want to know what you already know is not going to stop your other aspects of consciousness functioning in the way they do, you might sing a song to self and put your fingers in your ears, telling yourself that you are not listening la la la, but the information gets through anyway. 🙂

The mind cannot grasp the experience unless we first process it and decode it. The mind knows nothing else but the interpretation of the actual experience. Like a computer can't grasp anything but numbers 1 and 0. If you don't translate the information coming from the sensors - a scanner or a camera - into bytes, the computer can't handle it.

And if the mind is out of the way, out goes judging, you become Innocent like a child who knows no good or bad. The mind is the one doing the judging, and he is now paralyzed.

It is not the everyday thinking aspect of consciousness that is the seat of our being judgmental, it might have been the originator of that way of being, but another aspect takes care of what we believe self to be in relation to the world around us and that includes our judgmental beliefs.

Let me put it this way, our thinking mind is the equivalent of a calculator, in relation the speed it can process information, our memory aspect of consciousness (autopilot) process information at the speed of a good computer, our core way of being process information like a bank of super computers, it can run circles around our every day thinking aspect of consciousness, which is what it does when it pre-empts out thoughts and transposes them to be formed to be in alignment with our core way of being, so ignoring the calculator will not stop the bank of supper computers feeding you biased information concerning everything you are in experience of.

So yes, everything starts and ends with a thought. We need to form a thought and act in order to go into the "no mind state", and we have to form a thought and action to come out of the "no-mind state", but in the state itself, the mind is quiet.

I have a quiet mind all of the time, I do not have to think about anything unless I choose to, but I am still aware of the vehicles passing the house, if one of them stops I know it has stopped, I am aware of the clock ticking and the machinery working in the house, I am also aware of my heart beating and my lungs going in and out, not because I am making a conscious choice to identify or become aware of them, the information is available within all of our aspects of consciousness all of the time, our life experience is one of awareness into experience.

The nearest you will get to what you are seeking is to go into a sensory deprivation chamber, I think they do flotation tanks or chambers so no light, no sound etc, just you and nothing to distract you from being mindless for a time. 🙂

OK, I'm not saying that the moment I stop focusing, my head becomes empty of what ever it has accumulated previously, but the mind needs the division of time and place, otherwise it can't process. If you don't focus on a particular point in time and space, the mind can't relate to it, so if you perceive things without the division of time and space, you are going to a place where the mind can't follow you.

Is there anything wrong with my reasoning?

I mean do you think the processes that go on in your mind, can be totally unrelated to your current experience? There has to be some association to what you are currently experiencing. Even the constant chattering that goes on in your head must be triggered somehow by current events.