I listened to many hours of video teaching, by Osho, by S. N. Goenka, by Ven Ajahn Brahm, by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, by Rabbi Erez Moshe Doron (Author of the book "The Warriors of Transcendence").
Cross referencing all the sources I mentioned above, and comparing them with my personal experience I concluded the following:
Meditation is about detaching consciousness from the senses. In the waking state, both the senses and consciousness are awake. In the sleep state, we lose both – our senses and our consciousness. What we try to do in meditation is to lose our senses, but keep our consciousness, and thereby break the identification of consciousness with the limitation imposed on it by the senses.
The five senses are sending us signals, each of these signals becomes a stimulation, meaning, it creates a sensation - pleasant or unpleasant. We react to the stimulation, not to the external object. As this lady says and I agree:
There is no problem in reaction to stimulations, as long as it is not an automatic reaction, or as Osho says - there is a difference between a reaction and a response, if you react, you are controlled by an external force. What makes the difference between a reaction and a response is the awareness. If you don't react immediately to a stimulation, you leave room for awareness; for mindfulness; for discretion.
If consciousness is attached to the senses, than a pleasure sensation imprints an addiction in the consciousness, and a painful sensation imprints a trauma in the consciousness.
Trauma and addiction are the reason why we react automatically to stimulations. How do we stop it? We let the light of awareness go into our consciousness. As Osho says, the light of awareness melts down all the negativity suppressed in our subconscious.
How do we amplify our awareness? We need to give it some room. If we don't leave room for quiet, between the time the stimulation hit us, and the reaction, we don't leave time for awareness to happen, and separate the consciousness from the senses.
Ven Ajahn Brahm says, the human being has two main aspects, the 'doer' and the 'knower', and we need to take the energy, or the attention, from the 'doer' to the 'knower'. Osho also says something similar, "meditation is doing nothing at all – just be the watcher on the hill. Contemplation is also doing, concentration is also doing. you can't practice it, you just have to understand it" I think that's way, in meditation, we put our awareness on one continues stimulation, like the breath, because moving the attention from one stimulation to another, is also a reaction. And even keeping the attention on one object forcibly, is a reaction – it is also a form of doing. You need to simply let-go, and sink into the object of meditation, effortlessness is the name of the game. Ven Ajahn says, you don't realy need an object to meditate on, if you are experienced enough, you can by pass this stage, and jump right to pure awareness. or as Jon Kabat-Zinn puts it: the main thing is not the object of attention, but the attentiveness itself. Eventually the object of attention drops down by itself; you don't wait for the right time to drop it, as this is also 'doing'.
I find that the main purpose of a mantra is to quiet the mind. Also S. N. Goenka said so. I see we have 6 tools of doing, 2 hands, 2 legs, the sex organ, and... the head. The head is doing the thinking and the talking. In the middle of all the action organs is the heart, where the attention /awareness is. In meditation you stop the activity of all the doing organs, and activate the mindfulness organ - which is the heart (spiritually speaking). 'Doing' is a distraction, and disturbs the 'knowing'. As Ven Ajahn Brahm says: "if you take notes on a lecture, you don't hear parts of the lecture". The 'doer' and the 'knower' don't work together.
S. N. Goenka said: in vipassana, don't use a mantra. it quiets the mind very easily, but ... and then he gives reasons why not to use it. None of those reasons made any sense to me. And from my personal experience, if you are not a monk, living outside of the action, it is very hard to quiet the mind without a mantra.
In the YouTube movie "Spiritual Reality - The Journey Within" we are introduced to a form of mindfulness meditation and the instruction is not to chant a mantra, because chanting a mantra is an activity of the mind, and there for it should be stopped. This makes sense, as in meditation we try to stop the 'doer' and activate the 'listener' or the 'knower', as mentioned above.
I once heard in a YouTube video by Abraham-Hicks: "the way to meditate is feeling for a vibration or listening for a vibration… until before you know it you'll feel a detachment from your physical environment, and the reason you feel a detachment from your physical environment is because you are tuning into your inner world, where there is not sight, and there is not sound, and there is not smell, and there is not taste, and there is not touch…" According to that, how can a mantra be a meditation object? It is not a sense object that keeps your attention active, while the 'doer' goes to sleep; it is a doing by itself. Transcendental meditation always made me wonder, what is the object of attention in this meditation technique? In transcendental meditation you don't mess with your attention at all. once the mind is quiet, the attention moves naturally inwards, the technique itself is a mechanical process of repeating a thought in the mind, as I heard Maharishi saying so himself.
Therefore I think a mantra is not an attention object to keep the 'knower' awake, it is activity, but an activity that eventually brings the mind to its rest. From my experience, quieting the mind, on the one hand, while channeling your attention to a soft stimulation - like the breath, gives me the best result, therefore, on the out going breath I think the mantra, while on the incoming breath, I put my attention on the sensation of the breath. This way I cover both aspects, I stop the 'doer', while channeling the energy to the 'knower'.
How does the mantra quite the mind? I heard a few explanations: One is that you disturb the activities of the inner chattering of the mind. Or that the inner chattering becomes regulated and disappears like a background noise, like the constant sound of a refrigerator. Sri Sri Ravi Shankar is quoting a sutra that says, the only way to quiet a disturbed mind is by doing one thing, he says it has to do with creating boredom on the thought level
Maybe it's the boredom that is causing the attention to move away from thought, because by its nature, attention seeks for interest, and attention feeds the thinking process. Once attention detaches from thought, the minds activity is slowing down, even though you're not supposed to resist your thoughts, because that would be also a form of 'doing'. The byproduct is the quieting of the mind, even if it's not the immediate result. Anyway, whatever the explanation is, my experience is that repeating a mantra quiets the mind, and it is a very powerful tool.
Hope you find this interesting. You don't have to agree with me, but I like to hear your comments.
Regards,
Daniel
Paul, that's a specific type of meditation. What I refer to as "objective" meditation, because you have an objective goal or a question you want an answer to. Not all meditation techniques require us to maintain a focus, even if they start with a focus to help quieten the mind.
If you do that type of 'objective' meditation, you are either retaining focus (and therefore attachment) to that object - which can be very hard to do on a single thing, or you start with an object/goal and become attached to the thoughts that flow from that starting point (often similar to what is done with guided meditations).
Hi Giles, as you say once the mind is quietened then we do not require a focus, which is what I was saying, we need to set a focus for meditation, otherwise we might as well go to sleep. 😉
This looks like something deep, I'll do my best to understand it, but it would be helpful if you could add more words. Maybe explain it from a different angle.
"when we set a focus then the things surrounding that focus will come to mind"
What do you mean? if we focus we don't see the surrounding, that's the problem.
In meditation we attempting to utilise our consciousness to perceive our other aspects of consciousness, basically we are attempting to gain an inner understanding beyond the limitations of our everyday thinking aspect of consciousness. which can only perceive that which it has currently encountered.
Let me explain this utilising a different aspect of consciousness, we have a memory aspect of consciousness which contains a complete record of everything we have thought, said and done to date, now whenever we think of doing something, we are fed information form our past experiences surrounding whatever we are contemplating doing, but there is a time when this does not happen and that is when we are doing or learning something new.
Take learning to drive, we sit at the wheel and are given instructions and seem not to be able to coordinate our actions to what is required in the moment, our memory aspect of consciousness is quiet, it cannot help because until we have learnt to do it, the experience is not there to call upon, but once we have learnt, then we often drive down the same stretches of road without being over focused upon what we are doing, because now our memory aspect of consciousness can take over from our everyday thinking aspect of consciousness and allow us to contemplate other things whist driving.
As for the focus it is there to set the tone of the meditation, what we choose to perceive or not will largely depend upon the focus we set up when starting to meditate, we can change track at any time we choose to do so by changing the focus. 🙂
then we often drive down the same stretches of road without being over focused upon what we are doing
this phenomenon, where you daydream while driving, is a good example, to understand the activity of the subconscious mind. Who is the driver when you don't pay attention to the driving action? the subconscious mind is the driver. you are running on autopilot. The subconscious mind becomes active when ever you don't pay attention to the action you are currently doing - he is the autopilot. He becomes in charge on all the activity that you do while you are unaware of what you are doing. That's his job, and he is doing it according to the conditioning, programmed into it by your past experiences.
What you are saying (if I understood you correctly) is that you leave your body working on autopilot, so you can be free to go someplace else, someplace higher. Like a pilot putting his plane on autopilot, since it only has to carry on the same routine, and goes to the kitchen of the plane to grab something to eat.
Something like that, only it is still us driving, we are not actually separate from our other aspects of consciousness, though most people seem not aware of them until they are pointed out to them (our consciousness is similar to our body - like the body many parts that function as one body), meditation is one way to allow the fullness of consciousness to come into realisation and focus within our everyday thinking aspect of consciousness so that we can begin to think clearly and in harmony with self. 🙂
So much energy is invested wasted in formulating understandings, concepts....and then defending one's version of how it works, why it works and the rest.....It boils down to nada. Absolutely nothing
KNOW THYSELF....not understand thyself. If it was to understand thyself discussions about meditation will have great significance
Discussions about meditations and better attempt to understand the ins and outs of it are akin to put in a box and label that which cannot be understood at all and that which can never be pigeonholed.
But people do just that and it is high entertainment....and I totally get it, the entertainment value of such dialogue. It Is the coolest topic ever....
die o Jogi die!
Die o meditator die unto thyself.
All knowing arises out of that. Rest is borrowed concepts, whether it's borrowed from osho, goenka, gurjeif...techniques, borrowed concepts understandings cant do it.
Unknowing does not arise out of concepts....that's the only glitch
So much energy is invested wasted in formulating understandings, concepts....and then defending one's version of how it works, why it works and the rest.....It boils down to nada. Absolutely nothing
KNOW THYSELF....not understand thyself. If it was to understand thyself discussions about meditation will have great significance
Discussions about meditations and better attempt to understand the ins and outs of it are akin to put in a box and label that which cannot be understood at all and that which can never be pigeonholed.
But people do just that and it is high entertainment....and I totally get it, the entertainment value of such dialogue. It Is the coolest topic ever....die o Jogi die!
Die o meditator die unto thyself.All knowing arises out of that. Rest is borrowed concepts, whether it's borrowed from osho, goenka, gurjeif...techniques, borrowed concepts understandings cant do it.
Unknowing does not arise out of concepts....that's the only glitch
That may be true Ruby, but we have to consider that many people want to understand something to know it as truth before they do it, rather than just relying on blind faith and beliefs imparted by others.
There's nothing wrong with seeking to understand the truth of things, though sure, when we reach the state where we let everything go, then that understanding will not be there either.
I myself love to discuss and understand things. And it's true that those understandings will differ between people, but that is because the truth of it doesn't have a language to accurately describe it, so we use paradigms and models to illustrate what we mean.
Is that wasted energy? Perhaps ultimately yes, but then we could say that about anything in life.
That may be true Ruby, but we have to consider that many people want to understand something to know it as truth before they do it, rather than just relying on blind faith and beliefs imparted by others.
There's nothing wrong with seeking to understand the truth of things, though sure, when we reach the state where we let everything go, then that understanding will not be there either.I myself love to discuss and understand things. And it's true that those understandings will differ between people, but that is because the truth of it doesn't have a language to accurately describe it, so we use paradigms and models to illustrate what we mean.
Is that wasted energy? Perhaps ultimately yes, but then we could say that about anything in life.
We are both saying the same thing Giles...the widely held view is that meditation brings peace, clarity and the rest of it....and all I am saying is that clarity, pieces, joy knowing is subjective.....alll views foreign, no matter how valid, can only muddy waters. That's not to say that people can't discuss, but the pointing at the simple fact that it may just be a lot of interaction, and chatte, yet meditation, begins when all chatter stops.
Interesting thoughts Jnani, personally I do not meditate for a quiet mind, I have that all of the time these days, I usually meditate when I wish to focus upon something that I do not understand within my everyday thinking aspect of consciousness, meditation gives me a clearer sense of the oneness of consciousness so that I can expand my current understanding.
You talk of surrender and die and I talk of acceptance and growth, to know self requires us to perceive, understand, embrace and fully accept self, we cannot embrace something which we are fighting and rejecting, only acceptance brings harmony and wholeness, personally I have always found it easier for people to accept things once they understand them, but each to their own. 🙂
Interesting thoughts Jnani, personally I do not meditate for a quiet mind, I have that all of the time these days, I usually meditate when I wish to focus upon something that I do not understand within my everyday thinking aspect of consciousness, meditation gives me a clearer sense of the oneness of consciousness so that I can expand my current understanding.
You talk of surrender and die and I talk of acceptance and growth, to know self requires us to perceive, understand, embrace and fully accept self, we cannot embrace something which we are fighting and rejecting, only acceptance brings harmony and wholeness, personally I have always found it easier for people to accept things once they understand them, but each to their own. 🙂
I dont meditate, have not for a dozen years. I did for 20 odd years, and enough of it to see sheer futility of it on its own....There is something else that brings meditation alive. it is not the whole picture, just a basic preparation so you can learn to settle from frantic chatter. If you are settled real progress can begin
meditation is one of the most misunderstood things going....it does absolutely nothing to enhance you if you are not clear about what your heart (not head) wants from it and even if you are clear about what you want, there is no guarantee that it will deliver, what you expect from it....
Hence everyone gravitates towards meditation and end up on an intellectual journey....get absorbed by what they know experience and feel. Their version.
Bowing to what is, becoming available. What exactly is to discuss in becoming available?
The whole idea is to dive into unknown....that's the only purpose of meditation, if any. Meditation is saying yes to all that is beyond what mind knows. So if one keeps on churning away with methods, understandings, it is like trying to walk in two different directions....at the same time
Trying to understand something seems like a worthy cause...but with very little scrutiny and common sense the contrary becomes clear. Mediation is a lot like swimming....you can't sit there discussing swimmingyet people do the same thing with mediations, inner world, spiritual stuff...very little to discuss about swimming
There is something else that makes meditations click....that something is sheer love of Self...Pure urge to know Oneself, crystallized clarity of dying unto Self.. all that constitutes the persona with its past present future unto self. When that urge is there, methodology is irrelevant, wrong becomes right....purely because existence responds to your urges in heart. The true yearning of your heart. The head is clogged up with all kinds of borrowed junk.
If there is any movement at all with meditation that comes out of receptive heart....meditation lacking in receptive heart is waste of time. Receptivity. That is the essence. Take one thing away all understandings, concepts, experiences are hollow.
Paul acceptance is one preparatory step for dying unto thyself....and about growth- growth is of borrowed stuff, (mind) not of Self.
We are talking slightly different things
If there is any movement at all with meditation that comes out of receptive heart....meditation lacking in receptive heart is waste of time. Receptivity. That is the essence. Take one thing away all understandings, concepts, experiences are hollow.
Peace of mind is (to my understanding) something everyone is looking for. Some try to get it through entertainment, which is basically an escape. Some become workaholics to escape their tormenting thoughts - this is another way of escaping instead of dealing with the problem. Blind faith is another way of escaping your doubts and dilemmas - having some Guru tell you what you should or should not do, or to have some ideology you can follow without questioning, it is also an escape, but this way is the most dangerous one, you are letting yourself be hypnotized by some belief system, and your blind faith will most likely be abused , sooner or later, by some Guru or priest who will take advantage of you. Many of those who followed their Guru/priest blindly, were taken advantage of. The best way is to understand what you are doing, then experiment with it a little, and use your experience to widen your understanding, which in turn, will improve your practice. Never detach the practice from the understanding. Speaking of acceptance - understanding it's just another aspect of your self, which you should not reject. This way has proven itself for me, I made a lot of progress this way, and I'm sure others can benefit from it. I've already understood your point of view, now how about you opening your heart to see things from my point of view? - then you might understand my quest for understanding.
now how about you opening your heart to see things from my point of view? - then you might understand my quest for understanding.
Was never shut...putting a different view point does not mean I don't understand or my heart is shut. I just said what I said, and do you and everyone else. Views are just views....everyone has one. You did ask people to post even if they didn't agree. And that's all I did...posting not entirely agreeing and that puts spanner in the works sometimes....can't be that bad to be challenged....it's all fun and games
Take it easy and have fun
I dont meditate, have not for a dozen years. I did for 20 odd years, and enough of it to see sheer futility of it on its own....There is something else that brings meditation alive. it is not the whole picture, just a basic preparation so you can learn to settle from frantic chatter. If you are settled real progress can begin
Like you I seldom have the need to utilise meditation, using it to try and stop the chatter is just another diversion from getting self sorted out. 🙂
meditation is one of the most misunderstood things going....it does absolutely nothing to enhance you if you are not clear about what your heart (not head) wants from it and even if you are clear about what you want, there is no guarantee that it will deliver, what you expect from it....
Hence everyone gravitates towards meditation and end up on an intellectual journey....get absorbed by what they know experience and feel. Their version.Bowing to what is, becoming available. What exactly is to discuss in becoming available?
If we choose to perceive that we need to separate one part of our being from another part of our being then we are only creating inner division and conflict, we are one being, if we set the focus from the whole being then we progress as one being towards wholeness.
The whole idea is to dive into unknown....that's the only purpose of meditation, if any. Meditation is saying yes to all that is beyond what mind knows. So if one keeps on churning away with methods, understandings, it is like trying to walk in two different directions....at the same time
Trying to understand something seems like a worthy cause...but with very little scrutiny and common sense the contrary becomes clear. Mediation is a lot like swimming....you can't sit there discussing swimmingyet people do the same thing with mediations, inner world, spiritual stuff...very little to discuss about swimming
Yes I agree that we can utilise meditation to expand our understanding beyond what our everyday thinking aspect of consciousness can currently understand, yes we give ourselves permission to expand and grow, if you go and sit with a swimming group then you will hear lots of discussions on swimming, some thing you will already know, other things will expand your current understandings and techniques surrounding swimming, we can always learn new thing on subjects we feel we are well versed in if we are open to learn.
There is something else that makes meditations click....that something is sheer love of Self...Pure urge to know Oneself, crystallized clarity of dying unto Self.. all that constitutes the persona with its past present future unto self. When that urge is there, methodology is irrelevant, wrong becomes right....purely because existence responds to your urges in heart. The true yearning of your heart. The head is clogged up with all kinds of borrowed junk.
If there is any movement at all with meditation that comes out of receptive heart....meditation lacking in receptive heart is waste of time. Receptivity. That is the essence. Take one thing away all understandings, concepts, experiences are hollow.
But how do we get a sheer love of self and an urge to know, understand self, through self rejection or through self acceptance?
But I hear the methodology of dying to self all of the time, the ego must die, to do or think this or that is wrong etc, yet I still maintain that we are one being, every aspect of self is relevant and needs to be accepted in an open and non-judgmental way if we wish to be at peace with self and experience wholeness.
I have yet to encounter anything which advocates creating in division within self through self rejection, that can create wholeness.
Receptivity is being open to receive, which requires us to being open to accept.
Paul acceptance is one preparatory step for dying unto thyself....and about growth- growth is of borrowed stuff, (mind) not of Self.
We are talking slightly different things
I understand what you are saying, this is something which I obtained through self acceptance in an open and non-judgmental way, I did not die unto myself, rather I chose to move beyond the judgmental limitations I had previously set upon self, I did not achieve this by rejection but by making a conscious choice to fully embrace and accept all that I was in a open and non-judgmental way, I did not die to achieve this, quite the reverse I expanded to embrace the fullness of self that which was hidden by my judgmental divisional perceptions.
it's all fun and games
Doesn't sound like understanding to me... you're still judging me, that's what prevents you from understanding my point of view, and respect it, or accept it as another option. I'm not afraid of being challenged, but if you want to learn something from me, you need to open up.
Anyway, one thing is for sure, you gave me an opportunity to defend the "understanding approach". Maybe this way people will be more aware of the dangers of blind faith. I saw the movie "David wants to fly", about the TM organization - Women were used, and there is a lot of money and politics involved in this movement. I have my own unpleasant experiences with blind faith, which is what you are advocating, whether you are aware of it or not.
I did not die unto myself, rather I chose to move beyond the judgmental limitations I had previously set upon self,
If you ask me, at the end of the day, that's what meditation is all about, getting off the judge seat. Nothing feels better than that, and it certainly doesn't feel like dying.
Doesn't sound like understanding to me... you're still judging me, that's what prevents you from understanding my point of view, and respect it, or accept it as another option. I'm not afraid of being challenged, but if you want to learn something from me, you need to open up.
Daniel.. .I didn't ask or expect you to respect my view, or accept it as another option. You are free to do what you do with it. What is the problem if I do the same with your view. What if there is nowt to learn? and you insist that I learn from your understanding.....obviously you feel I am not open to do so....a lot of presumptions. But that's quite alright. No wonder you feel judged
Anyway, one thing is for sure, you gave me an opportunity to defend the "understanding approach". Maybe this way people will be more aware of the dangers of blind faith. I saw the movie "David wants to fly", about the TM organization - Women were used, and there is a lot of money and politics involved in this movement. I have my own unpleasant experiences with blind faith, which is what you are advocating, whether you are aware of it or not.
Opportunity to defend....there is no possibility of defending anything in absence of taking offense....
Defense offense and pretense go hand in hand.
...about Blind faith....That and receptivity are as far as they can get from each other.
Receptivity is highly intelligent thing to do. Blind faith kicks in with lack of clarity and direction...that is precisely what I have been saying all along.....and some go down the track of extreme mental engagement to avoid the ditch of blind faith....both are two sides of the coin...
People go to a guru just because a friend went, a book they read, or it is in ether...but they go without real pining in their heart or clarity knowing exactly what Might ensue....Pandora's box opens. All hell let loose. A perfect example of blind faith. No inner clarity, no real pining, no intense calling....no receptivity, like drift wood. Things get intense and they will, then there is no substance, preparation or inner direction to cope with all that
The second scenario is to avoid above and extreme study....often the essence is missed. An over cook.
So understanding is needed, but without receptivity its nada. Back to square one
Like you I seldom have the need to utilise meditation, using it to try and stop the chatter is just another diversion from getting self sorted out. 🙂
If we choose to perceive that we need to separate one part of our being from another part of our being then we are only creating inner division and conflict, we are one being, if we set the focus from the whole being then we progress as one being towards wholeness.
Yes I agree that we can utilise meditation to expand our understanding beyond what our everyday thinking aspect of consciousness can currently understand, yes we give ourselves permission to expand and grow, if you go and sit with a swimming group then you will hear lots of discussions on swimming, some thing you will already know, other things will expand your current understandings and techniques surrounding swimming, we can always learn new thing on subjects we feel we are well versed in if we are open to learn.
But how do we get a sheer love of self and an urge to know, understand self, through self rejection or through self acceptance?
But I hear the methodology of dying to self all of the time, the ego must die, to do or think this or that is wrong etc, yet I still maintain that we are one being, every aspect of self is relevant and needs to be accepted in an open and non-judgmental way if we wish to be at peace with self and experience wholeness.
I have yet to encounter anything which advocates creating in division within self through self rejection, that can create wholeness.
Receptivity is being open to receive, which requires us to being open to accept.
I understand what you are saying, this is something which I obtained through self acceptance in an open and non-judgmental way, I did not die unto myself, rather I chose to move beyond the judgmental limitations I had previously set upon self, I did not achieve this by rejection but by making a conscious choice to fully embrace and accept all that I was in a open and non-judgmental way, I did not die to achieve this, quite the reverse I expanded to embrace the fullness of self that which was hidden by my judgmental divisional perceptions.
If you are happy in your heart that's the main thing.
The dying is not of the ego...that is just a trap that keeps you in seeking. Dying unto yourself is a bit of mythology if it is not within your experience....you would know if it happens....it does not need to happen to everyone. Life is enough unto itself if lived fully
Jnani,
I looked at your site:
It starts with a question: "Are you yet done with the infinite games of mind?" more or less what you have been saying all along. Words and labels can't replace the direct experience, but, they are the only means of communication we have, to share our experiences with others. If you put a label on something, just because you want to reject it, and not relate to it, that's what I call being judgmental, but using words, only as notations for real experiences is fine, that's what words are for, so we can communicate with others, and you know what? until you are able to communicate your experience to others, with words, you didn't really internalize and processed these experiences within yourself.
Meditation has become part of psychology. It will not stay within the realms of mysticism and madness much longer. My wife is learning for a degree on psychology, and there is a relatively new field in psychology called: "Mindfulness", which uses inner awareness to treat mental disorders. One thing I like about academics is there fear from having anything to do with mystics, that's way they make their best to use accurate descriptions and explanations, and reject any ambiguity. They describe "Mindfulness" as "Meta-cognition" which is defined in Wikipedia as: "cognition about cognition", "thinking about thinking", or "knowing about knowing" and higher order thinking skills." They are using meditation principals but I don't know exactly what they are doing and how they are doing it, but it involves observing your own thinking processes.
How can you possibly be the doer of an action and the observer of this action at the same time? You can only be an observer of a process that you have no control over, otherwise it doesn't make any sense.
This has lead me to conclude that we are in fact watching the activity of the subconscious mind, the way it reacts to stimulation's (mainly to sensations, pleasant or unpleasant) according to the conditioning that was programmed into it. You simply stop your intentional activity and discover, to your surprise, that the activity doesn't stop there. Something else stays active in the background. What is the source of the flow of thoughts that seems to be coming from nowhere? - Say hello to your subconscious mind.
I've also noticed that the first stage of meditation, the stage in which you focus on something and thereby distract your attention from thought is causing this flow of thought to go into high gear. In the TM teaching they call it the "Stroke outward" and it is defined as the process of stress release. Somehow observing the subconscious thinking process, causes it to release the suppressed thoughts/conditioning/Sankharas it has accumulated.
All this I've experienced myself while practicing.
I've also noticed that by focusing my attention I'm going into a trans state, this is what made me learn the Burmese style of sitting, because while going into trans I was falling, and this was waking me up, and preventing me from going deeper into the trans state. this and the dream like flow of thoughts which I was experiencing, made me realize that during meditation I'm going into a sleep state, the main difference is the awareness.
Therefore it is my understanding that the first stage of meditation, which is called the "stroke inwards" is meant to distract your attention from thought, only so that your thinking process will become unintentional, and controlled by the subconscious mind. Once you got your subconscious mind up and running, you become aware of your thoughts again. You may call the first stage: "quieting the mind", if you mean quieting the intentional conscious thinking process. As I see it, this is the mechanism which produces the effect of meditation.
How can you possibly be the doer of an action and the observer of this action at the same time? You can only be an observer of a process that you have no control over, otherwise it doesn't make any sense.
No this is where most people's understanding of consciousness falls down, because we are mostly aware of the thought patterns that we instigate in our everyday thinking aspect of consciousness in the moment, we generally only perceive ourselves as having one aspect of consciousness, which we deem to be us.
An inner divisional conflict arises when two or more opposing thought patterns and or beliefs arise with our consciousness at the same time, this can only happen if we have more than one aspect of consciousness that is capable of thought, awareness and reason, so yes we can be both the doer of the action and the observer of that action at the same time, we do it all of the time, but most of it runs as a background process to allow us to fully experience whatever we are experiencing.
Think of it like this, we think put the kettle on and make a brew, we get up and walk to the kettle, fill it up put it on and make a brew, how much of the process have we just observed and how much have we done! Now you might say I thought go and put the kettle on and I got up and walked to the kettle, how did you get up and walk to the kettle? which muscles did you have to tighten and which muscles did you have to relax in order to perform each movement that was required, how did you adjust your posture to stop yourself from falling over? Because we do something all of the time, does not mean that we are not actively doing it within the different aspects of our consciousness, it is the amount of mindful awareness that we have which defines how much we are aware of what we are doing and why we are doing it the way that we do it.
Mindfulness meditation is similar to having a day dream, it requires a focus to help us to become aware of what we are beyond the limitations of our every day thinking aspect of consciousness, this is where guided meditation comes into its own, it guides us to become aware of the things that we have previously setup within our aspects of consciousness that creates our general state of health and wellbeing, our underlying thought patterns and beliefs as well as our judgmental ties etc.
...become aware of the things that we have previously setup within our aspects of consciousness that creates our general state of health and wellbeing, our underlying thought patterns
You use the word "Previously setup" to describe what "creates our underlying thought patterns", it means you do agree that the underlying thought patters are not created by a present moment choice, but by a "previously setup", you say: "we have previously setup", so this makes us the doer, that's right, but we are not making the choice to do them right now, we have setup a general principal, which is then carried-out automatically, in case a certain situation comes along - it is not founded on a present choice, like our intentional doing, but on choices done in the past, general decisions to relate in a certain way to certain scenarios.
...so yes we can be both the doer of the action and the observer of that action at the same time, we do it all of the time, but most of it runs as a background process to allow us to fully experience whatever we are experiencing.
Yes, these background processes are produced by another aspect of our consciousness, as you say, I'm just calling it "the subconscious mind", and the more you do meditation, the more you become conscious of the subconscious, but the subconscious aspect of your consciousness works on its own, meaning its actions are not the result of a current moment decision, as I explained, that is why I say we are not doing them, another aspect of our consciousness is carrying them out, according to a previously installed program.
you might say: "I am the doer", but you are really only acting like a robot, so this makes it possible for you to observe the action even though you are doing it, because you're not really doing it - that is to say, you're not choosing to do it at this very moment.
This underlying aspect of our consciousness, can be manipulated by external forces, to carry out programs that we didn't install, but were installed in your subconscious, using different forms of hypnosis.
Mindfulness meditation is similar to having a day dream, it requires a focus to help us to become aware of what we are beyond the limitations of our every day thinking aspect of consciousness,
In what way does the focus help us? Is the focus causing us to be aware of the underlying/beyond? or is it causing the dream state?
You use the word "Previously setup" to describe what "creates our underlying thought patterns", it means you do agree that the underlying thought patters are not created by a present moment choice, but by a "previously setup", you say: "we have previously setup", so this makes us the doer, that's right, but we are not making the choice to do them right now, we have setup a general principal, which is then carried-out automatically, in case a certain situation comes along - it is not founded on a present choice, like our intentional doing, but on choices done in the past, general decisions to relate in a certain way to certain scenarios.
You missed the important part of my quote which ends with our underlying beliefs and judgmental ties, these are always current even though they have been created in the past.
Yes, the way we have chosen to be is not founded upon a present choice unless we are open to change, it is founded upon a past choice which is directly influencing and limiting our present choices, it might seem to be that these will only come into effect with certain scenarios, but the reality is they affect every thought, choice and action that happens right now.
Yes, these background processes are produced by another aspect of our consciousness, as you say, I'm just calling it "the subconscious mind", and the more you do meditation, the more you become conscious of the subconscious, but the subconscious aspect of your consciousness works on its own, meaning its actions are not the result of a current moment decision, as I explained, that is why I say we are not doing them, another aspect of our consciousness is carrying them out, according to a previously installed program.
You are still choosing to perceive the different aspects of consciousness as functioning independently and in a separate way to each other, for most people this would appear to be true, because they have inner divisional conflicts at play all of the time, this is the endless chatter and inner dis-ease that most people experience most if not all of the time.
The reality is that whether we choose to accept it or not, we are 100% responsible for every thought pattern and belief that exists within our aspects of consciousness, it is irrespective of when we choose to embrace a belief concerning self, that belief is our belief, it became active when we choose to create it, it has always been active since that time, it is still active today governing the way we think in our everyday thinking aspect of consciousness and the things we do and the way we do them.
you might say: "I am the doer", but you are really only acting like a robot, so this makes it possible for you to observe the action even though you are doing it, because you're not really doing it - that is to say, you're not choosing to do it at this very moment.
Actually we are choosing to do everything this very moment based upon what we are or what we have chosen to perceive ourselves to be, in the now everything is current.
This underlying aspect of our consciousness, can be manipulated by external forces, to carry out programs that we didn't install, but were installed in your subconscious, using different forms of hypnosis.
A suggestion will only be acted upon if that suggestion is in alignment with the person it is given to, if it is in opposition then it will have the same effect as telling self something which is in opposition to self, we are as I said 100% responsible for what is in our consciousness, but it is only when we choose to exercise that personal responsibility that we move into a position of power to choose to change.
In what way does the focus help us? Is the focus causing us to be aware of the underlying/beyond? or is it causing the dream state?
It is both, I do not go through any ritual at all when I decide to meditate, I set my focus upon being in a meditative state of being and also set the reason for setting this time aside to contemplate within a meditative state, then I just do it.
Meditation has become part of psychology. It will not stay within the realms of mysticism and madness much longer. My wife is learning for a degree on psychology, and there is a relatively new field in psychology called: "Mindfulness", which uses inner awareness to treat mental disorders. One thing I like about academics is there fear from having anything to do with mystics, that's way they make their best to use accurate descriptions and explanations, and reject any ambiguity. They describe "Mindfulness" as "Meta-cognition" which is defined in Wikipedia as: "cognition about cognition", "thinking about thinking", or "knowing about knowing" and higher order thinking skills." They are using meditation principals but I don't know exactly what they are doing and how they are doing it, but it involves observing your own thinking processes.
How can you possibly be the doer of an action and the observer of this action at the same time? You can only be an observer of a process that you have no control over, otherwise it doesn't make any sense.
This has lead me to conclude that we are in fact watching the activity of the subconscious mind, the way it reacts to stimulation's (mainly to sensations, pleasant or unpleasant) according to the conditioning that was programmed into it. You simply stop your intentional activity and discover, to your surprise, that the activity doesn't stop there. Something else stays active in the background. What is the source of the flow of thoughts that seems to be coming from nowhere? - Say hello to your subconscious mind.
I've also noticed that the first stage of meditation, the stage in which you focus on something and thereby distract your attention from thought is causing this flow of thought to go into high gear. In the TM teaching they call it the "Stroke outward" and it is defined as the process of stress release. Somehow observing the subconscious thinking process, causes it to release the suppressed thoughts/conditioning/Sankharas it has accumulated.
All this I've experienced myself while practicing.
I've also noticed that by focusing my attention I'm going into a trans state, this is what made me learn the Burmese style of sitting, because while going into trans I was falling, and this was waking me up, and preventing me from going deeper into the trans state. this and the dream like flow of thoughts which I was experiencing, made me realize that during meditation I'm going into a sleep state, the main difference is the awareness.
Therefore it is my understanding that the first stage of meditation, which is called the "stroke inwards" is meant to distract your attention from thought, only so that your thinking process will become unintentional, and controlled by the subconscious mind. Once you got your subconscious mind up and running, you become aware of your thoughts again. You may call the first stage: "quieting the mind", if you mean quieting the intentional conscious thinking process. As I see it, this is the mechanism which produces the effect of meditation.
Sure, psychology is then becoming slightly mad to embrace mysticism...as you call it...whatever mysticism means...What do all these words even mean anyway? Just boxes to keep our own references intact, What is their essence?
I have a psychology degree. It is over rated....ordinary folks can have much even better understanding of life and functionings of mind and our reality than several doctors of psychology, I have met several unpretentious folks like that. psychology is a tiny, very contrived, fabricated science...a minuscule part of life....I don't have any respect or awe of psychology as a science per se. I Lost it while I was doing my degree.
If you (generic) are lucky, you will stumble upon the non doing nature of the being...there is plenty action...but no doer behind it.
Diligence gets you there. Seems like you are diligent. Which earns my respect.
One word of caution-don't run past it!
It's so immediate, people run past it.
we are as I said 100% responsible for what is in our consciousness, but it is only when we choose to exercise that personal responsibility that we move into a position of power to choose to change.
Then why is it so hard for us to choose to change? what is the force that is binding us? Is it a form of lust? and don't you think the choice we make to follow our thought patterns and belief systems, is more of a default choice? we choose it because we don't resist it, so it's not really a conscious choice, won't you agree?
.I don't have any respect or awe of psychology as a science per se. I Lost it while I was doing my degree
I don't think psychology is really a science, but it gave us a language to describe mental phenomenon, and this language was created by academics so it is sharp, unlike the language of mysticism. Science is focused on the clear and exposed parts of reality, this is it's downside, but it also keeps it from becoming ambiguous like mysticism. I use it to my advantage, and it becomes handy, so I'm grateful for it.
Where would I be without language? would I've ever come to know the meaning of the word Meditation? it would have probably pass me without being noticed, the only thing which made me recognize it as "Meditation", is this word/box/label I had in mind, which made me acknowledge I'm having an encounter with something big and important, worthy of my time. Now it's my job to pour essence into this word. Who knows, maybe eventually I will stumble upon the non doing nature of it, which at this stage might no be 100% clear to me. I wouldn't skip the process, it has a value of it's own.
I don't think psychology is really a science, but it gave us a language to describe mental phenomenon, and this language was created by academics so it is sharp, unlike the language of mysticism. Science is focused on the clear and exposed parts of reality, this is it's downside, but it also keeps it from becoming ambiguous like mysticism. I use it to my advantage, and it becomes handy, so I'm grateful for it.
Where would I be without language? would I've ever come to know the meaning of the word Meditation? it would have probably pass me without being noticed, the only thing which made me recognize it as "Meditation", is this word/box/label I had in mind, which made me acknowledge I'm having an encounter with something big and important, worthy of my time. Now it's my job to pour essence into this word. Who knows, maybe eventually I will stumble upon the non doing nature of it, which at this stage might no be 100% clear to me. I wouldn't skip the process, it has a value of it's own.
Academics are knowledgable, they know a great deal of stuff and non sense.
A mystic (if you must use this term, its fine by me) is attained to Pure intelligence. He is in the unknowing...the void of which everything is birthed.
Academics don't come close to one who knows oneself. Illiterate seer have more intellect in their little finger than all academics of the world put together. I just didn't say it. I have met such intelligence in action. The whole humanity seems quite a duffer and dulled down state of intelligence compared to the one who knows oneself.
The nature of this attainment is Such that along with it comes an ability to express succinctly....a large number of sages, saints, masters have been illiterate, yet their utterances, songs, insights surpass the beauty of classical literature...
There is a sharpness to it, it's not a dull state of mind far from it. Everything is sharpened in the fire of love for Self. It can be caustic, edgy, kind, sharp as a sword, potent as a bomb....whatever it needs be in the moment. Pure intelligence does what it needs to....a world beyond grasp of the learnt bits and bobs of academics.
Then why is it so hard for us to choose to change?
Now you are asking the right questions. 🙂
The reason most people find it so hard to change is simply because they do not understand how we function within consciousness, they think that our thoughts are not important, that to think something or dwell on something is unimportant.
what is the force that is binding us?
The reality is that our thoughts (consciousness) is the driving force behind our life experience, everything begins and ends with a thought, we create a beginning thought as a judgmental belief because we are not happy with something or we are afraid etc, but we do not follow it up with a closing thought to dismiss the judgmental belief, so it becomes a core belief, a sub routine that makes sure we abide by it in our life experience or we will get a bump on the head about it.
We do not arrive here with beliefs or judgments, these are personal things that we have to create for self, once created we tend to forget that we have created them, because the things that we created them about no longer exists in real time, each belief and judgment creates a blockage to our ability to choose, we become set in our ways or way of being.
Is it a form of lust? and don't you think the choice we make to follow our thought patterns and belief systems, is more of a default choice? we choose it because we don't resist it, so it's not really a conscious choice, won't you agree
No it is not a form of lust and as they say in law ignorance is not a valid excuse for breaking the law, it is the same with consciousness, whilst people are happy to blame anything rather than embrace personal responsibility for what they have chosen to create within self, then that is exactly what they are creating within self, they are disempowering themselves from the ability to choose to change, they are stuck in a loop of their own making, this is a personal choice.
No I do not abdicate people thinking that they have no choice in the way they are, I advocate that people need to become mature through embracing personal responsibility, so that they are once more free to make choices and just be, rather than striving to become something or other. 🙂
No I do not abdicate people thinking that they have no choice in the way they are, I advocate that people need to become mature through embracing personal responsibility, so that they are once more free to make choices and just be, rather than striving to become something or other.
I think you can't blame people for their weaknesses, preaching them that they should change their ways. Our working assumption should be that people really want to do good, but weaknesses are taking over. We should make them look inside and be aware of these weakness by observing how they influence the human behavior. Eventually people will drop these weaknesses, simply because they want to be free.
But you don't see it as a weaknesses, you see it as misconception, or ignorance - you know they say the biggest trick Satan played on humans is persuading them that he doesn't exist. to me it is clear that the knowledge alone will not change this behavior, because it is not the lack of it, which has created it in the first place. There are powers of seduction in this world, on the mental plane, just like on the physical plane.
A mystic (if you must use this term, its fine by me) is attained to Pure intelligence
Now that meditation has become integrated in psychology, it will become common-knowledge, you'll see. No more kissing some mystics feet for years, until he'll be willing to give you something - after you swear to secrecy. The benefits of meditation will not be deprived from the human race for much longer.
Now that meditation has become integrated in psychology, it will become common-knowledge, you'll see. No more kissing some mystics feet for years, until he'll be willing to give you something - after you swear to secrecy. The benefits of meditation will not be deprived from the human race for much longer.
Psychology combined with meditation will save us all. Helleluja!
infact meditation has been available to people for thousands of years...it wasn't discovered yesterday. Yet what has changed?
I didn't kiss any mystic' feet.....neither did anyone exploit my what you think is 'blind faith' , nor was i kept me hanging, nor was any swearing to secrecy....where are you getting all the ideas from?
a large number of people in west know of meditation today, People in the east have always known all the stuff d non sense about meditation . people generally know a lot of stuff today that they didn't know 20 years ago...just wait and watch....everyone is gonna be alright, world is going to get peaceful....Spiritual folks love this dream.
I think you can't blame people for their weaknesses, preaching them that they should change their ways. Our working assumption should be that people really want to do good, but weaknesses are taking over. We should make them look inside and be aware of these weakness by observing how they influence the human behavior. Eventually people will drop these weaknesses, simply because they want to be free.
But you don't see it as a weaknesses, you see it as misconception, or ignorance - you know they say the biggest trick Satan played on humans is persuading them that he doesn't exist. to me it is clear that the knowledge alone will not change this behavior, because it is not the lack of it, which has created it in the first place. There are powers of seduction in this world, on the mental plane, just like on the physical plane.
I don't blame people for their weaknesses, my advice to people is exactly the same type of advice we give to children - 'If you put your hand in the fire, it will get burnt', OK you went and did it anyway, now let us sort it out so that you can still use your hand and here is what you do to avoid make the same mistake again.
It is one thing to preach at someone when we do not have a way of rectifying the problem, being aware of what is happening and being able to do something about it is two completely different things, using mindless meditation might help someone to become aware of what is occurring within their aspects of consciousness, but awareness on its own is not going to resolve anything.
Yes I understand the power of the personas we create within consciousness, I also fully understand that people have a right to experience and that what we are discussing here is one such experience which we create for self, education would not stop people from choosing to go down that road, it is after all a personal choice which is available to each individual. 😉
I didn't kiss any mystic' feet
Me nether, and the reason is, because meditation came out of ambiguity and secrecy, not yesterday, but for a few decades now there is a process doing on, and along this process there are turning points, which make the process go into high speed, one of them is the integration of Meditation in Physiology. Time will tell if my prediction is right.