So I've been trying to meditate now for some while, but I have some questions and problems I can't figure out. I am interested in being able to observe my thoughts, to detach myself from them, and I have been trying to do so for a while, mostly without any luck.
Every time I try to observe my thoughts, I end up frustrated, and give up. I always give up because I simply can't find my thoughts, as weird as it may seem. I am trying to be aware of them, but I simply fail time after time. When I want to be aware of my thoughts, I expect a feeling of knowing that this is a thought, and I am aware of it, but I rarely get that feeling. I always end up asking myself, am I doing it right, because I am very unsure of what are my thoughts and what are not.
I wonder then if I am doing something wrong, if there is a special "move" with my awareness I have to do, so I can observe my thoughts, if there is one simple thing I am doing wrong. Most of the time when I try, I don't know where to look for my thoughts, or what they are. It's like Im searching for them all the time, but I am never able to be aware of any of them , always lost in them. Most articles regarding this on the internet says what you need to do, "to be aware of your thoughts, disidentify with them, just observe them, do not judge them", but they don't say how in details, or what could go wrong. When I try to follow the directions, "just observe, stand back and observe your thoughts flow by", I just end up trying to observe my thoughts, but there are no thoughts to observe, because I can't find them/ be aware of them.
Also, what does "intentional thoughts" have to do with all this, I mean, things you can say to yourself when you want to. I sometimes wonder, if saying some things to yourself is the same as being aware of your thoughts? I highly doubt it but after trying for so long time to be aware of them, I don't know what to believe anymore.
What am I doing wrong from what I wrote? How can I be aware of my thoughts, and know I am aware? Why am I not able to be aware of them, even though I try?
It's really hard to explain everything, Im asking for some help from any of you willing to give me some advice or answer my questions. Any help GREATLY appreciated.
Hi mono90 .
Over 20 years of meditating now I would say there are many similarities for all in regards to meditation and also differences .
Perhaps there are two ways of addressing this .
1. Don't try and do anything and let what arises arise .
2. Use a focus in order to try and control your thoughts / mind .
Both ways of going about meditation will bring you to the same point eventually .
A point that is beyond the thinking mind .
x dazzle x
Hi Mono,
my own opinion, in my experience, is that it is too much too soon, expecting a beginner in meditation to be able to meditate on the thoughts.
What is practical is a system of meditation, beginning by meditating on the breath. Such a system is described in "Beyond the personality: the beginner's guide to enlightenment", a free downloadable book.
If you begin this system and still cannot discover your thoughts, that will be surprising, as you will find.
So I've been trying to meditate now for some while, but I have some questions and problems I can't figure out. I am interested in being able to observe my thoughts, to detach myself from them, and I have been trying to do so for a while, mostly without any luck.
Every time I try to observe my thoughts, I end up frustrated, and give up. I always give up because I simply can't find my thoughts, as weird as it may seem. I am trying to be aware of them, but I simply fail time after time. When I want to be aware of my thoughts, I expect a feeling of knowing that this is a thought, and I am aware of it, but I rarely get that feeling. I always end up asking myself, am I doing it right, because I am very unsure of what are my thoughts and what are not.
I wonder then if I am doing something wrong, if there is a special "move" with my awareness I have to do, so I can observe my thoughts, if there is one simple thing I am doing wrong. Most of the time when I try, I don't know where to look for my thoughts, or what they are. It's like Im searching for them all the time, but I am never able to be aware of any of them , always lost in them. Most articles regarding this on the internet says what you need to do, "to be aware of your thoughts, disidentify with them, just observe them, do not judge them", but they don't say how in details, or what could go wrong. When I try to follow the directions, "just observe, stand back and observe your thoughts flow by", I just end up trying to observe my thoughts, but there are no thoughts to observe, because I can't find them/ be aware of them.
It sounds more like you are trying to attach to your thoughts rather than just letting them flow past. Our minds created thousands of thoughts in the unconscious apsect, and we only pick up on the odd thought and bring it to our conscious mind to actually 'think' about things (talking to ourselves in our heads, or expressing it out loud etc.). When these thoughts are brought to the consicous mind we are becoming attached to them. The other thoughts are still being generated by the activity of the mind in the unconscious, but our focus is on the ones we bring to the conscious mind.
So, you seem to be trying to place your focus on the unconscious thoughts, without becoming attached to them, but they you are also wanting to try and bring them to consciousness so you can interpret them and 'think' about them, so you end up in a viscious circle of trying to let thoughts flow without becoming attached, but having a desire to attach to them to understand them. It won't happen.
Just observing the thoughts flowing without attachment is possible, but takes practice as we often find them coming into conscious mind and thus we get attached and distracted. When we just observe, we are aware of the thoughts flowing, but do not become attached to them or even have concern for what those thoughts are (concern itself is a thought, so let it go)
Also, what does "intentional thoughts" have to do with all this, I mean, things you can say to yourself when you want to. I sometimes wonder, if saying some things to yourself is the same as being aware of your thoughts? I highly doubt it but after trying for so long time to be aware of them, I don't know what to believe anymore.
What you are calling intentional thoughts are those we bring to conscious mind and start following the flow of that thread of thought. Whilst obviously you are aware of it, you are also attached to that thought and distracted from other things (hence why we can refer to this as daydreaming). True awareness is without attachment.
What am I doing wrong from what I wrote? How can I be aware of my thoughts, and know I am aware? Why am I not able to be aware of them, even though I try?
You are awareness in yourself, so you are aware of the thoughts, but you are trying to attach to and see all the thoughts in the unconscious mind which you cannot do, you can only pick up and attach to one thought in the conscious mind, until you choose to drop it or become distracted with another thought that is picked up.
It's really hard to explain everything, Im asking for some help from any of you willing to give me some advice or answer my questions. Any help GREATLY appreciated.
I think you explained it very well, as it's not an easy concept to put in words, and it's also not easy to put in words to answer you.
Daz's advice is very good. If you use a focus for your meditation, such as a mantra, then this will aide you in not becoming attached to particular thoughts as they flow past.
David's advice is also good, as this is also providing a focus for the meditation. However, be aware that many new meditators are not taught to focus on the breath properly, and end up trying to control the breath, trying to make it regular and slow it down etc. which can cause physical symptoms of lightheadedness or the need to take sudden gasps of breath etc. which just distracts from the meditation. Meditating on the breath should be done by observing the body breathing naturally whether it goes slow or fast, deep or shallow etc. without any attempt to control it. I've lost count of the number of people who have picked up techniques for 'meditating on the breath' from poor websites which do not explain this, and they find difficulty or experience physical symptoms and don't know what they're doing wrong. On the meditation forum I also frequent, it's a common issue that arises with people, but usually it's corrected after it's explained what is being done wrongly.
All Love and Reiki Hugs
So I've been trying to meditate now for some while, but I have some questions and problems I can't figure out. I am interested in being able to observe my thoughts, to detach myself from them, and I have been trying to do so for a while, mostly without any luck.
Every time I try to observe my thoughts, I end up frustrated, and give up. I always give up because I simply can't find my thoughts, as weird as it may seem. I am trying to be aware of them, but I simply fail time after time. When I want to be aware of my thoughts, I expect a feeling of knowing that this is a thought, and I am aware of it, but I rarely get that feeling. I always end up asking myself, am I doing it right, because I am very unsure of what are my thoughts and what are not.
I wonder then if I am doing something wrong, if there is a special "move" with my awareness I have to do, so I can observe my thoughts, if there is one simple thing I am doing wrong. Most of the time when I try, I don't know where to look for my thoughts, or what they are. It's like Im searching for them all the time, but I am never able to be aware of any of them , always lost in them. Most articles regarding this on the internet says what you need to do, "to be aware of your thoughts, disidentify with them, just observe them, do not judge them", but they don't say how in details, or what could go wrong. When I try to follow the directions, "just observe, stand back and observe your thoughts flow by", I just end up trying to observe my thoughts, but there are no thoughts to observe, because I can't find them/ be aware of them.
Also, what does "intentional thoughts" have to do with all this, I mean, things you can say to yourself when you want to. I sometimes wonder, if saying some things to yourself is the same as being aware of your thoughts? I highly doubt it but after trying for so long time to be aware of them, I don't know what to believe anymore.
What am I doing wrong from what I wrote? How can I be aware of my thoughts, and know I am aware? Why am I not able to be aware of them, even though I try?
It's really hard to explain everything, Im asking for some help from any of you willing to give me some advice or answer my questions. Any help GREATLY appreciated.
Hi Mono90, welcome here!
It is not your fault that you cannot dissociate from your thoughts. It is usually that way when one starts and sometimes even 10 years after one started.
You are not doing anything wrong, I can assure you.
However there is a huge amount of mis-understanding around going beyond thoughts and becoming non-chalent to them. You read a book and set out to do what it says...the trouble starts there. Thos Jain Boddh techniques were given to students who were just living to go beyond mind. It is different when we grab a book and expect that to show us the way...it ends up confusing more than ever.
May I ask what do you expect if you can dettach yourself from your thoughts?
Mind is a subtle mechanism. It is a jumble, a right din. Observing thoughts as a practice have its huge pitfalls, especially when the mind is full of uncontrolable chatter.
Mind needs settling first to be dettached enough to see thoughts come and go. Jains, Budhists do this but to prescribe it to a layman and it soon shows its dis advantages. which you have written about very clearly.
About intentional thoughts... You are right on there. Not all books come out of no-mind. So the half ripe knowledge only confuses more.
You ask for helpful tip.
Do something simple instead. Let this yearning ripen. Don't do anything. Don't reach out for remedies in the form of meditations,books, practices, healings, yoga or anything at all. Let the sting be. Just let it grow. Let it unsettle you fully first. Become aware of it getting more and more like a thorn in your side. Let it show itself in its full force.
It may take many many months, even a few years...so patience is needed. But it will be still doing what needs to happen.
If everyone was not in sucha rush to self-help...there will be more presence on the planet. Instead we engross ourselves with all kinds of spiritual jargon/effort and then wonder why it is so darn disappointing and painful.
Some dynamics are not mastered on the back of effort and logical, linear thinking. This being one of them.
Going beyond thoughts happen with effortlessness, that happens with grace...grace happens with open heart, pining for connection with what IS. Keeping busy with self- help is one the biggest obstacle in non-doing. Surrender happens by stopping, letting it happenthoughts, stop...and if they come they are just passing prade. Come and go as they like...who cares?
Let the fire within burn first, let it burn, it will show you the way. Don't reach out to quench it with books and stuff and non sense. It will lead you right
Love
If everyone was not in sucha rush to self-help...there will be more presence on the planet. Instead we engross ourselves with all kinds of spiritual jargon/effort and then wonder why it is so darn disappointing and painful.
Some dynamics are not mastered on the back of effort and logical, linear thinking. This being one of them.
Not sure about this.
I don't see a rush of seekers to self-help. I don't see a rush of seekers attempting to master themselves through hard effort and discipline.
I DO agree that few books come out of no-mind. However there are some which do. Let the seeker beware, certainly, but I hope no seeker will be misled into thinking that effort and discipline are not required, even essential.
I think disappointment and pain are also essential parts of the spiritual path.
but I hope no seeker will be misled into thinking that effort and discipline are not required, even essential.
I think disappointment and pain are also essential parts of the spiritual path.
I agree David .
There is a mixed vibe of late where some are of the impression that there is nothing to do . We are all perfect and such likes just as we are no matter how one feels or expresses themselves .
To a degree I agree with that .. but if one is freezing cold and one has no logs for the fire one must chop down the tree . It may take a tremendous amount of effort for some to acquire the logs and for some it maybe less of an effort but one must willfully engage otherwise one will remain out in the cold in more ways than one .
x dazzle x
I agree David .
There is a mixed vibe of late where some are of the impression that there is nothing to do . We are all perfect and such likes just as we are no matter how one feels or expresses themselves .
To a degree I agree with that .. but if one is freezing cold and one has no logs for the fire one must chop down the tree . It may take a tremendous amount of effort for some to acquire the logs and for some it maybe less of an effort but one must willfully engage otherwise one will remain out in the cold in more ways than one .
x dazzle x
Just so. Krishnamurti's legacy, alas.
The behaviour one can manifest when one has reached the top of the mountain is not the same as the behaviour required to climb that same mountain.
Not sure about this.
I don't see a rush of seekers to self-help. I don't see a rush of seekers attempting to master themselves through hard effort and discipline.
I DO agree that few books come out of no-mind. However there are some which do. Let the seeker beware, certainly, but I hope no seeker will be misled into thinking that effort and discipline are not required, even essential.
I think disappointment and pain are also essential parts of the spiritual path.
Are we talking general here? It is a response to this particular post.
Hi guys,
First of all thank you for these nice answers. i still have a question. My mind always observs himself. like thoughts on thoughts .my body feels very uncomfortable. how can i stop this ?
Are we talking general here? It is a response to this particular post.
I get that, Jnani: yes, it was general. I was concerned that people might read your reply and use it to confirm their own cherished beliefs that effort and discipline are not helpful.
My mind always observs himself. like thoughts on thoughts .my body feels very uncomfortable. how can i stop this ?
Again, this is a good reason why committing to a system of meditation and development will be helpful. Each system will have their own way of dealing with this. In the system I use, for example, (and I am talking about the leading up the the first stage of enlightenment) the guide says that the primary discipline is, whenever distracted, to return the attention to the breath. Observation of the thoughts is not taught until the first stage of enlightenment has been attained, in this system.
Other systems, for instance that of Echardt Tolle, recommend a focus on the bodily discomforts.
It is not that one is right and one is wrong - however changing from one system to another can be a form of escape from the work.
Incidentally, in neither system I have mentioned is any attempt made to stop the discomfort. One begins by sitting in a comfortable position. If discomfort then arises - or should I say WHEN - one then acts according to the particular system one is working with.
I agree with David,
Some people like to keep trying different meditation techniques in succession, trying to see which one 'works', but the only way to really find which method you prefer is to stick with one for a while and see before changing to another if it doesn't seem right. It does take time and different people will prefer different techniques.
As for the discomfort, I again agree with David, you should ensure you are as comfortable as possible when you start meditating. Some techniques teach that you should just observe any discomfort, acknowledge it and bring your focus back to the meditation, others teach that you should simply adjust yourself so that you regain comfort and then continue with your meditation. It depends on the technique and, in general no one method of teaching is the 'correct' way.
From personal experience I have tried many different meditation techniques, most of them being effective to varying levels. The most effective I found was mantra based meditation (such as used in Transcendental Meditation or similar teachings), though I am happy to do other techniques if in a group meditation etc.
All Love and Reiki Hugs