Mechanical or Mysterious

Hi David,

Yes, I personally would consider meditation to be mainly on the mechanical side rather than the mysterious. Of course many people do link the meditation practice or the things they experience whilst meditating with their own beliefs or even the beliefs of others who have imposed those on them, and thus consider such things to be mysterious, but from personal experience and knowledge of meditation, I would say there's little that is mysterious about it, except when it comes as a mystery to people who haven't been imparted with the more mechanical understanding of it.

I would agree with what shankara says. The light/images that we see during meditation are what I refer to as a bio feedback between the eyes and the brain. As for what 'meaning' that has (a question many people ask on meditation forums) that is like interpreting dreams... it depends what it means to the individual perceiving it.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

The light/images that we see during meditation are what I refer to as a bio feedback between the eyes and the brain.

Hi Giles,

I wonder, though, if there is not something else going on here too, involving spirit. That, of course, does not mean that it is mysterious to me, but that it is difficult for someone who doesn't believe in spirit do see that there is a mechanical explanation.

I remember once reading that if a stone age man saw me use a light switch, or any one of thousands of other gadgets we take for granted, he would think me a powerful magician. Shortly before clubbing me, probably.

It does seem to me that there is confusion in the scientific community about this kind of stuff. So much of science is about measurement that it is easy to confuse cause and effect.

So, if I use a system that attributes rose-pink to the heart chakra, say, then I would expect to see rose-pink when I "connect" in meditation with it. On the other hand some expect to see blue, and they see blue.

Science says that we are constructing the colours because of our deeply held beliefs. I would say that I am seeing that colour because spirit allows me feedback in the symbolic language I have chosen to work with. It is impossible to prove, either way, to anyone else, which version is correct, yet they are both mechanical explanations to me - although I doubt our hypothetical scientist would see it like that.

I would say there's little that is mysterious about it, except when it comes as a mystery to people who haven't been imparted with the more mechanical understanding of it.

Hi Giles .

I agree with your line of thought here .

If a child see's the snow fall for the first time one is filled with wonder / amazement as to how something that is quite beautiful can fall from our skies in an instant .

Everything is part of a process and everything that is unknown can be known . Something mysterious can fall into the bracket of the unknown but it will only remain a mystery while it is not understood .

Understand the processes and all can be realized .

x dazzle x

Hi David,
Thank youn very much for picking up on my post.
Would you be kind enough to elaborate a little on your use of the terms 'mechanical' and 'mysterious' ? I'm not sure if I fully understand how they relate to meditation.

I should say that my own formal training (going back some years!) was in the Burmese Vipassana tradition. It is quite a dry approach, and lays little emphasis on phenomena such as seeing lights, hearing sounds etc.

For me, the dissolution of mystery through scientific endeavour doesn't equate with a loss of awe or wonder. I understand (more or less) the bio-chemical pathways involved in photosynthesis. That said, it still blows my mind.

Likewise, I don't personally feel the need to construct any particular narrative when seeing entoptic phenomena in meditation. I'm perfectly content to understand them as random firings of nerves in the visual cortex etc and be done with it. Still, the fact that such sensory impressions can be created is pretty cool in my book.

Of course, people's response to your question will ultimately depend on what they understand by the word 'meditation'. But that's another thread...

Best to all.

Would you be kind enough to elaborate a little on your use of the terms 'mechanical' and 'mysterious' ? I'm not sure if I fully understand how they relate to meditation.

I think that many are attracted to the mysterious side of meditation, in the sense that they are attached to doing something different from their fellow man just because it is different. It is then a way of making oneself "special," whereas I think the goal is to realise that we are all the same, but with different amounts of experience. That is true humility.

For me, spirit is as much a part of what is "Real" as the material world. In fact, I quite agree with the Kabbalists that there are four worlds - only one of which is physical. And we exist in all four worlds always, although our awareness is initially limited to the material world only because of our reliance on our five bodily senses. And those parts of us in the other three worlds have much much more say in our lives than our personalities are comfortable with. So meditation for me is a kind of facilitated merger with a larger consciousness, and not something I am controlling at all - although I have to do "my" part. (Language doesn't cut it here at all, does it!)

As far as differentiating between the terms "mechanical" and "mysterious" I quite like this explanation:
[url]B 2.3.1 What is the tool for the transformation of awareness and how does one use it? | Guides to Enlightenment[/url]

2.3.1 What is the tool for the transformation of awareness and how does one use it?

Just as each human body shares a common physical anatomy, so, too, do we share a common non-material anatomy. This common structure we share extends beyond our psychological make-up. This cannot be understood by reading about the subject, or by being told, it can only be understood by direct experience.

Also, the work of many spiritual teachers in providing a path for their students to follow is to substitute mechanics for mystery. In this case I think much of that work is to defuse fear , which gets in the way, by providing a mechanistic reference framework.

In my work as a coach/therapist I have come to understand that in order to move on, my client often is helped by first coming to their own understanding of what happened to them. Having understood in their own way, acceptance and perhaps even forgiveness (the diamond standard of moving on!) can follow. I say their OWN understanding, because it doesn't seem to matter if there is any objective truth in it (whatever that might look like :eek:).

Anyways, Shankara, I've put this up as a summary, not because I think anyone posting on here doesn't know it already :).

I think that many are attracted to the mysterious side of meditation, in the sense that they are attached to doing something different from their fellow man just because it is different. It is then a way of making oneself "special," whereas I think the goal is to realise that we are all the same, but with different amounts of experience. That is true humility.

I think the real humility for those who think that meditation makes them somehow special or different from others will come when they start doing it and realise just how many other people are already doing it. It's like someone buying a new car, and going for a particular colour and style because they think it's different from what everyone else has got, then driving out of the forecourt and finding that there's loads of other people all with the same make, model and colour... they just hadn't been aware enough to see it before.

For me, spirit is as much a part of what is "Real" as the material world. In fact, I quite agree with the Kabbalists that there are four worlds - only one of which is physical. And we exist in all four worlds always, although our awareness is initially limited to the material world only because of our reliance on our five bodily senses. And those parts of us in the other three worlds have much much more say in our lives than our personalities are comfortable with. So meditation for me is a kind of facilitated merger with a larger consciousness, and not something I am controlling at all - although I have to do "my" part. (Language doesn't cut it here at all, does it!)

As far as differentiating between the terms "mechanical" and "mysterious" I quite like this explanation:
[url]B 2.3.1 What is the tool for the transformation of awareness and how does one use it? | Guides to Enlightenment[/url]

Not sure I agree with the 4 world's idea personally, to me that's just another model of perception, however the quote you gave is spot on... we can only know what we personally experience.

Also, the work of many spiritual teachers in providing a path for their students to follow is to substitute mechanics for mystery. In this case I think much of that work is to defuse fear , which gets in the way, by providing a mechanistic reference framework.

In my work as a coach/therapist I have come to understand that in order to move on, my client often is helped by first coming to their own understanding of what happened to them. Having understood in their own way, acceptance and perhaps even forgiveness (the diamond standard of moving on!) can follow. I say their OWN understanding, because it doesn't seem to matter if there is any objective truth in it (whatever that might look like :eek:).

Completely agree. Understanding isn't what someone else perceives it to be, it's what the person themselves understands.

Anyways, Shankara, I've put this up as a summary, not because I think anyone posting on here doesn't know it already :).

It's always good to re-iterate these things, especially as there are always people 'new' to such ideas, who may want to ponder them and put them into personal practice for themselves.

All Love and Reiki Hugs