Information on meditation

Dear Norbu,

You said:

I know you may disagree with some of my views in this respect Elen but here is an opportunity for all to explore our opposing opinions on this matter and for them to make up their own minds.

I wonder if HP is an appropriate place to want to pursue your disagreements with me from elsewhere, Norbu? Are "all" the members of this forum here particularly interested?

I came to this forum originally because, unlike you, I've studied, qualified in, and practise several complementary therapies - and wanted to interact with other complementary therapy practitioners and students.

As a practising Buddhist with one of the main traditions I uphold that tradition.

I'm totally not interested in a hidden agenda of 'oneupmanship' with you, Norbu - life's too short and I've got other things to do. A little friendly tip -try interacting at E-sangha for discussions on your views and see how you get on there. It might be a more appropriate place.

Be well and happy.

Kind wishes,

Elen

P.S.

Anyone in London who's interested in meditation can find classes here:

[DLMURL] http://london.samye.org/london/ [/DLMURL]

There definately isn't any pressure to become a Buddhist there. I have a friend who's a practising Catholic who's really benefited from the meditation classes as well as other non-Buddhists. There's also a weekend course on 7th and 8th February entitled " Remedying stress through mindfulness"

Happy new year everyone!

Dear Elen,

In the context of my responding to leogirls request for advice you comments do appear to be directed at my reply.

Listening to different meditation instructions from various well-meaning internet posters and trying to understand and follow them can often cause much unnecessary confusion. Meditation is best done with an offline meditation group and an experienced and authentic meditation teacher. (Always investigate carefully first)

Who are people to listen to? How should they test information? Surely these are very important questions in the arena of seeking health particularly today where so many different approaches are presented and so many different sets of authority are used as means to back up one approach rather than another.

The root of the word meditation is the same root as medicine. There is ever increasing interest in meditation because of its benefits to health and well-being. I think this is a good thing and that is why I am engaging in sharing information on meditation on Healthy Pages. Of course I get plenty of opportunities to learn and develop my understanding in this dialogue as well. But this can only really happen through dialogue not through assertions of authority.

Having a particular practice with a particular tradition is one solution that suits many including yourself. However, there is always a tendency to feel some kind of proprietorial association with the truth when people align themselves with a group identity of a tradition or culture. But surely upholding a tradition doesn't need to be a platform for criticising others' well meaning attempts to respond to questions.

Norbu

Norbu,

I think this is a very interesting and important discussion so thank you for starting it.

Elen,

I don't feel that norbu is 'persuing disagreements' with you, but is promoting healthy discussion on, what appears to me to be, an interesting topic. It may be an off-shoot from another discussion, but there is nothing wrong with that, and Healthypages is most certainly a suitable place to discuss such things. :hug:

In reply to the topic itself, I feel that validating information or teaching for ourselves is one of the most valuable things we can do. Many people do just take what someone says and believes it to be true, whether this is the teachings of a church, the teachings of a school teacher, the teachings of any group or just what is said to us by our friends or family.

In the practical philosophy class that I am currently attending, one of the main points they make from the start is that you should not take their word for anything they teach. It is 'practical' because they give you information to take away with you, to put into practice yourself and to come back and discuss with the group the following time. If something works for you then this can be enlightening, if it doesn't then this does not matter. We take from the teachings what is right for us. The course talks in places of "the creation", however I do not follow creationism myself. This doesn't mean that I will turn around and dismiss this school's teachings in totality, but I will interpret the teachings for myself in a manner that I understand and continue to gain practical experience from all the teachings. What works works and what doesn't doesn't.

We have to believe in ourselves before we can believe in others.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Thank you for your comments, Energlse,

My remark about 'well-meaning internet posters' was a comment concerning misunderstandings about meditation on the internet in general and had absolutely nothing to do with "Norbu"!

Of course we must validate information and teachings. I have never ever suggested otherwise. Blind faith is certainly not my style!

I appreciate, Energilse, that you are completely unaware of other interactions and connections between Norbu and myself. However it is not my wish to continue interactions with this person any further for a number of private reasons, and so I'll bid you goodbye with kind thoughts and good wishes.

Elen

...Oops, sorry, I got the spelling wrong in my last post. It should have said

Energylz and not "Energilse" !:o

Elen

Dear Elen,

It's a real shame that you seem to wish to make this discussion one based on personal issues. It doesn't need to be like that.

The key issue here is the function of tradition in protecting wisdom and working out what is the baby and what is the cultural bathwater of that tradition particularly when Eastern philosophies and practices are being transported to the west. From one culture to another.

On the other hand it can be hard for people to know who to listen to, particularly when there is such a wide array of approaches to health and well being, be it physical, mental or spiritual, available in the market place. And in such a market place there have always been charlatan's ready to sell snake oil, drugs, and spiritual practices under the auspices of various systems of authorisation for a dollar or two and often more.

Institutions bestow authority on those who comply with the institutional demands of allegiance. And there will always be a conflict between upholding orthodoxy required to maintain institutional cohesion on the one hand and personal empowerment on the other. Institutions, by their very nature, resist change. In the case of institutions that hold traditions of wisdom there is always the danger that this resistance to change is the very cause of the loss of the wisdom they were created to protect.

But there is an even more pressing question that is at the core of this discussion: When is it the right time to discuss certain things? In your post you state that:

Listening to different meditation instructions from various well-meaning internet posters and trying to understand and follow them can often cause much unnecessary confusion.

On the other hand the restriction of information can also cause many problems. One of the reasons why I try to share my understanding when I see a need for it is that I know, from harsh personal experience, how difficult it can be to ask questions and not get sensible answers, particularly from those who claim have access to or are given authority by institutions to hold such knowledge.

I'd add that my experience of this kind of apparent dishonesty is not confined to any particular type of institution. In fact, I suspect, it is a universal characteristic in human society. "They" just don't like awkward questions do "they". Again this was the same in the Buddha's day, or even Socrates' day for that matter, as it is today.

So Elen, It seems you are willing to make comments that, in context, appear like criticisms, then deny they are criticism claiming they are generalised statements without making some kind of apology for any unintended offence you may have caused by contextual clumsiness, then refuse to engage in discussion to support your views stating you are not interested in personal one-upmanship and claiming some kind of hidden agenda that the reader does not have access to. It would appear to me that all you achieve by your approach is to undermine the tradition you claim to support.

I would suggest you don't need to do this. It would make more sense, at least to me if no-one else, if you engaged in sharing your views but you don't need to do that either.

And of course there is a special ingredient outside the realm of words... And meditation is very much about this. But this does not mean that we cannot talk about it in epistemological terms and with reference to experience at least. In fact, I am writing about meditation on HP because I believe it is such an empowering tool for human health with potential for so much benefit to people in society today. I hope you would agree about this at least.

Norbu

Norbu,

I would suggest you are still trying to pursue a personal vendetta with me here from elsewhere since before Christmas -and you can't let it go. I have already told you quite clearly in a private e-mail that I don't want to have any further communication with you - and you will also have read that in my earlier post to Energylz ,yet still you persist in addressing me publicly on this forum.
I don't want a discussion with you about anything at all. Do you understand English? Are you a decent enough man to pause for sensible reflection about this, please, before launching into another of your lengthy expositions?

Leave me alone, those are my final words to you. Please try to find the decency to do that and stop addressing me on this forum when I've done my best to make that clear.

Thank you,

Elen

Dear Elen,

I'm sorry you are upset. I do hope you will accept that I have, nor have ever had a personal vendetta with you and have never meant you any personal harm. I do understand you may not accept this but I feel I must, at least, respond to your suggestion that that is the case. There is clearly a sorry set of misunderstandings that clearly would not be beneficial examine further.

Best wishes,

Norbu

We have to believe in ourselves before we can believe in others.

Actually, I don't think this is true at all. I think that quite often it is the belief in someone else (and perhaps their belief in us) that allows us to believe in ourselves. But. . .that isn't the topic of this thread.

Love to all those who are fortunate enough to believe in themselves, but especially to those who don't believe enough in others.

Transmitting lineage secrets

We have to believe in ourselves before we can believe in others.

Actually, I don't think this is true at all. I think that quite often it is the belief in someone else (and perhaps their belief in us) that allows us to believe in ourselves. But. . .that isn't the topic of this thread.

Dear Holos,

Thank's for your post. I think you've made a really important point. And I feel it is very much on topic, at least indirectly. Recognition by another that we are able to do something certainly is true of what is needed in many areas of learning and is crucial in child development.

Using the Buddhist tradition as an example: The historical Buddha encouraged people to test information for themselves and not to take believe simply because he had said it. However, this was in a context where people were definitely listening to what he had to say. There are many things we have to take as given by figures we have some kind of faith in before we get to test the information thoroughly.

In the Buddhist tradition and in many others a student will become a teacher's disciple. There is often abuse of this but it is clearly a very powerful way of developing understanding if a true teacher is found.

Part of the process of taking on a guru as a teacher is that the act of devotion to the person of the guru. This is a a ticket to take instruction from the guru as unquestionable truth that this relevant for the student at the stage of understanding the student has attained. This means that instruction is student specific depending on their needs.

In my experience, those who take on gurus within traditions have a tendency to feel that the guru is a necessary vehicle for transformation rather than an option. The other option being the one I prefer and the one that Giles is describing. Perhaps this accounts for the difference between those who feel that information should be held within a lineage of gurus and those who feel that we should all be able to make up our own minds.

In Irena Tweedie's account of her experiences with her Guru (as Sufi) she describes how disciples came and visited the Guru. This disciples entered a state of Dhyana. They lost consciousness. She was frustrated that she could not attain this state but the Guru explained that she would have to go through "the process" in full consciousness. We have the account of her experiences because the Guru instructed her to keep a diary so that people could read about what happens in this approach.

With this kind of teacher, there is clearly only one way to achieve the transmission that transformed Irena Tweedie and the other disciples that entered Dhyana; by developing a relationship with the teacher and experiencing the "energy" of his/her presence (Irena Tweedie became the lineage holder after her Guru transferred it to her). But the information and details of what was said were not the significant part. There was no censoring of information by her Guru in her account.

So why do some lineages claim that details of information transferred to the student must be kept secret?

Norbu

So why do some lineages claim that details of information transferred to the student must be kept secret?

This happens in all sorts of teachings, not just buddhist but, for example in Reiki too.

Many teach that 'this' or 'that' is "secret" and shouldn't be shown or told to another.

My personal view is that there has been a misinterpretation between secret and sacred. Keeping things secret does not allow people to learn and eventually the secret bestows power upon the ego of the secret keeper, sometimes to the extent that the secret is never told and lost forever. On the other hand, understanding that something is sacred allows the information to be passed on freely, but not just giving it as it is, but giving it with as much knowledge, understanding and teachings behind it as we can. If someone asked me to see the Reiki symbols I would be happy to show them, yet I would also explain to them the purpose and meaning of the symbols so that they too understood what they are for and how they are used. Is this not what a teacher (or 'master') is supposed to do? 😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hear hear! Well said, Giles.
I am greatly put off all kinds of secret-bearing esoteric cliques, elitist lineages etc. that intrigued me when I was young & naive and longed to feel 'special'.

Now I have come to realise that Truth - Healing - Divine Love is the natural birthright of every human being. Not some privileged few.

All this building up pomposity, fear etc & demanding money &/or subservience to egotistical 'leaders' smacks of cultism, elitism and self-serving, money-making, power-hungry narcissistic egos imo.

Demanding 'brand-loyalty' secrecy merely serves to perpetuate further exploitative opportunities for those at the top. Again, only my view.

I do hope my strongly -voiced opinion doesn't cause offence.
But I have witnessed many innocent, idealistic, eager souls getting sucked into some cult, or 'branded' scheme that serves to make money & give kudos to those in charge at the expense of the 'punters', who then play along (to justify being 'had') & draw in the next batch.

It saddens me greatly to see seekers-after-Truth / God / Healing being pressured to pay more then they can afford, or undergo humiliating, subservient rituals before they can access the teachings they so earnestly desire.

I know there are many good leaders / teachers / gurus out there; but imo these are not the above-mentioned exploiters, but are the most gentle, open-hearted, fair-minded souls who love & serve others humbly & wisely and do not try to patent, control, 'own' or 'brand-name' Divine Love.

secrecy and effectiveness of practices in traditions

I think we should be careful not throw out the baby with the bath-water here with respect to secrecy in traditions.

This is because of the special relationship with the Guru. The Guru is given authority through devotion of the disciple, acts as a realisable ideal model for the disciple acts as a means for suspending doubt over certain issues enabling the disciple to conduct beneficial practices with faith.

The actual practice that is given through the lineage of teachers that is revealed to the originator of that lineage has a specific role to play in the effectiveness of the Guru based approach to transformation. You can see these types of behaviour in traditions across the world and often their efficacy is based on a transmission of authority from teacher to student through the student going through the required training or initiation process. There has to be exclusivity based on some kind of transmission of authority. In a non-profession society this has to be secrecy secrecy. This is just like the "secret" engineering knowledge of the stone masons that build medieval cathedrals. This then turned into secret societies with quasi-magical initiation rituals in the Free Masons. If the practice was freely available to anyone then why would the disciple go through the initiations to get the practice.

I'd say that you can even include modern medicine in this analysis. You can certainly include alternative practices in this analysis as well as various magical, shamanic or religious practices. These "ritual" practices empower the actors, actions and outcomes. The trouble is for these practices to work the belief in their efficacy must be maintained. This can then become a belief that results in exclusivity. And this exclusivity to power can be abused.

Just think of the Wizard of Oz. Suspending the autonomy of the subject's mind is only legitimate as an expedient. In the end the true Guru reveals the power of what brings about transformation. It is not the power of the magician. It is the power of the mind of the believer.

There is danger of abuse, if at any stage this process is not based on the highest of ethical standards. People practitioners and teachers have to make a living too!

Norbu

When you believe in the Guru you build an altar to the person.

When you believe the teaching you make of your life an altar to the learning.

Hi Holos,

When you believe in the Guru you build an altar to the person.

Actually, I don't think this is true at all. I think that quite often it is the belief in someone else (and perhaps their belief in us) that allows us to believe in ourselves.

Isn't a true Guru the "someone else... [whose] belief in us... allows us to believe in our[true]selves"?

Norbu

Hi Holos,

Isn't a true Guru the "someone else... [whose] belief in us... allows us to believe in our[true]selves"?

Norbu

It’s a fine line.

Someone who encourages me to believe in my true self can be a guru.
In that case they would also encourage me to mature beyond their understanding, support the development of my own way of being, and promote my own unbounded growth.

Too often those who are classified as guru teach one way of thinking and encourage others to be subservient to that process. They teach the boundaries within which they believe others should grow or enforce the guidelines that they, themselves, have found helpful.

As true guru, the self disappears into the wisdom.

Superbly well put, Holos. Thanks for your clarity of understanding & expression.

Hi Hollos,

That was a nice quote.

Regards,

Lakshmi

Starshower*** thank you for sharing this...

Now I have come to realise that Truth - Healing - Divine Love is the natural birthright of every human being. Not some privileged few.

Yes!

Holos thank you for sharing....

Someone who encourages me to believe in my true self can be a guru.
In that case they would also encourage me to mature beyond their understanding, support the development of my own way of being, and promote my own unbounded growth.

Yes!

An interesting thread, meditation is to work on becoming ever more conscious so that you realise what you really are beyond skin, personality, conditionings etc. My own personal view on Guru's is that it is them that find you and not the other way around despite how it may look (as we are unconscious) and you'll get what you deserve. If your pure in mind, heart and truly and very sincerely seeking the Truth then that person will find you and in that persons presence you will know within if that is your Guru.

list of engineering journals

Can anybody tell me how to do Mediation,mostly people says that we have to do mediation early in the morning around 4'oclo. Is it Right???

Can anybody tell me how to do Mediation,mostly people says that we have to do mediation early in the morning around 4'oclo. Is it Right???

No that's not right.

Meditation can be done at any time of the day as it suits your lifestyle, though regular and consistent practice is recommended. With regular practice meditation becomes a part of your daily life and the effects of it are benefitting you all the time.

There are various styles of meditation that can be practiced and a search of the web will give you an idea of the different styles available.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

I like the idea of letting the Guru find you when you are ready. How to get ready then becomes the problem, and the answer isn't the same for everyone.

I learnt meditation with the friends of the western Buddhist order, as I wanted a class to go to. After some of that, quite a lot of that actually, my favourite system presented itself to me on a second hand book stall.

What I like especially about it is, it is practise, not theory. Its method is to integrate you with the flow, so that you can go with it, and then everything you need to learn, everyone you need to meet, comes to you. Your job is to be open to accepting the guidance of your intuition, developed by meditation, and that is hard enough.