prolotherapy

RE: prolotherapy

Hello Iant,

You should have an MRI, bone scanand any other tests to see if you have any fragments of your spine which could be doing this. The Osteopath should have not done what he has done without doing the tests first. Go see your doctor / physician and get the test done through him / her and you will find out if you have certain problems before proceeding to the next level. Do not go to the Physiotherapist. Once you know what is the problem and it is not serious, see a special massage therapist for help. If it is serious, go according to your doctor's / physician's recommendation.

Good Luck

RE: prolotherapy

i had an MRI a few months back and didn;t really show up a lot. mild facet joint hypertrophy

all the "holistics" i keep going to see just like to crunch you back about and "return normal function to your spine" however they have been so engrosed with this that they have forgot to notice what my problems really are: hypermobile joints at the bottom of my spine and too much movement in my SI joints. The last treatment i had with surreys best back specialist has made my joints hypermobile! I don't know why people put phyio's down so much - every physio i have gone to see has always played things on the safe side instead of going in all guns blazing and making things worse...

luckily i have access to two very good expeets in the field of SI joints and prolotherapy to help the slack ligaments i have which have come about through poor diagnosis and the incorrect treatment

once consulted a number of people i am probably going to go along with this line of treatment and hopefully will help me strengthen up my joints and put me on the road to full recovery although i know it will take time!

cheers

ian

Prolotherapy - recent personal experience and opinions

I am aski instructor...this reply is very long but for you I think interesting.....

I suggest you look at how prolotherapy has fixed Bode Miller, JJ Johnson, Eric Schlopy and Bryon Friedman of ligamentous knee and back injuries. Big news in feb 2006 because they went to a well respected doctor who has in fact lost his US licence but that is another story - they went against advice from their team trainers - because they don't know anything about the treatment - went to Mexico and BINGO - fixed..I have done a ton of reasearch on prolotherapy (and the doctor these guys went to ..he is in fact one of the pioneers and has written many papers that are still used today by ORTHOPEDIC SURGEONS in the USA and UK...and taught many practitioners BUT that fact has been conveniently omitted from the press reports !!!!!) because I had a chronic back problem with stretched ligaments...I am fixed...if you have time here is my story...BUT BEWARE....Prolotherapy is only as good as the doctor who diagnoses and treats you..it requires very accurate diagnosis and incredible skill, experience and a STEADY HAND...you have got to get a very long needle into the ligament in some very inaccesible places.....especially at the point it connects with the bone..I was very lucky that I picked the only doctor in the UK who had been doing it non stop for 35 years and had had the treatment himself 40 years ago...which was why he studied it !!

here you are.....

In response to anyone asking about experience with prolotherapy.
yes I have ! I am a ski instructor. I am now 44 but had the first treatment almost 2 years ago
The treatments were not painful - just a sensation of the needle going in - this depends entirely on the therapist and even then..there is a risk of hitting a nerve. The local anaesthetic and gas
worked fine for me each time.

The treatment has been utterly successful and I would like to share my story - because there are some CAVEATs....read on.

I had a chronic lower back problem (basically slack SI ligaments and lumbar ligaments on lower right side...very common indeed) which I had been having treatment for from 2 osteopaths for it would not heal - osteopaths who had cured me of all other issues over the preceding 5 years - I was very confident in these guys so when they couldn't fix me I looked further.

I had xrays and MRIS done so I could see if there were any other reasons for my pain other than lax ligaments - the xrays and mris looked perfect - the traumatologists, osteopaths and orthopedic surgeons etc all looked at them and said the same - you look perfect...PERFECT...it's just a bit of hypermobility..it will go away...well after 28 months of NOT going away I was not going to just accept their answers...not just because they had letters after their names and nice white coats...oh no...not me....

I found prolotherapy on the internet and spent 1 year researching it every day - I asked many osteopaths, orthopaedic surgeons - ones who were personal friends AND by going to see specialists at clinics in the UK and Spain and France....nobody that I spoke to had even heard of it !

Well...I can tell you that I wish I had not spent 1 year researching it because I wasted a year of my life by having to tolerate the pain - the prolotherapy was effective very quickly - I wish I had just gone to the doctor I found the first day I read about it !!! BUT...I was lucky....the doctor I saw has been a prolotherapist for over 30 years, had had the treatment himself 40 years earlier and as a result studied it - I was lucky to find someone with this experience first time.
I have since learned - through more research and discussions with my doctor - that it is very clear that the success of prolotherapy depends on 3 IMPORTANT THINGS..

1) The skill and experience of the therapist - the therapist needs to be VERY skilled, sensitive and accurate

2) The actual solution the therapist uses - they are NOT all the same - each therapist has his preference - therfore one with more experience can judge what works better.....for example...the solutions used in the US are often NOT as effective as the solution my doctor uses because many doctors are unwilling to use enough of the one of the irritant substances - which also happens to be an antisceptic - because it has, in a very small numbers of cases, caused temporary but painful side effects - this is apparently very very rare and often due to the inaccuracy of the therapist - as I am informed. The effectiveness of the treatment is clearly
governed by how much irritant solution is used in each treatment - the more used the quicker and more pronounced the healing BUT there is a limit to how much the body will tolerate. Do not forget the healing process is the response to the local irritation caused by the needle and the irritant solution used in prolotherapy.

3) ACCURATE diagnosis....I knew what my problem was because I had felt it develop over some years and remember exactly what caused the original trauma - I had had lots of treatment with osteos, physios, etc during 15 years of sport - I could feel what the problem was - after a few little injuries you can recognise what type of problem you have and if it's getting better or not.

I was lucky to have theprivate health so I just kept going to see different people - including the main professional winter sports injury clinic in Barcelona - until I was satisfied I had the info. I went to see the prolotherapist in London with all my mris etc...he just laughed and said.."I have seen your problem every day of the week for the last 35 years - almost everyone has this problem - I dont need these mris but thanks I will look at them for you...oh yes..as i suspected...you cannot see any problem...well you won't ! The SI ligaments will not show any damage on an MRI..the slightest stretching or damage to these can be very painful but you can't see it. Do you want me to treat you now or do want to mess around for another year ?"
He examined me and clearly demonstrated to me that one side of my pelvis was far more mobile than the other...my previous osteopaths had both diagnosed exactly the same thing - and explained which ligaments would be treated.... I started there and then...I had far fewer treatments than recommended - I was in the gym within 48 hours...skiing within 2 weeks...I am a ski instructor....I had to travel from Spain to the UK for treatment.
I had 3 treatments between nov 2005 and feb 2006....the problem was 95% resolved by the 3rd treatment...but ideally I should have had a treatment every 3 weeks for about 6 months ...it would have solved it even sooner...I have since had 5 more sessions between may and oct 2006...the function of the joint was stabilised within 4 weeks of first session..my osteopath in Spain was astonished at the change and increase in stability of the right side....bearing in mind he had treated me for 5 years before and had had to realign my pelvis every visit..every 2 weeks...since prolo he has never had to do that. The mobility/movement in the joints is now almost equal on both sides. That has been confirmed by the 2 osteopaths in Spain who are not connected to my prolotherapist.
The pain had gone completely by the 3rd treatment..it had reduced to about 20% of original pain after the first treatment.
If I had to sum it up...I would say I am now 100% functional and pain free for 90% of the time..before I was in pain 90% of the time.
the other 10% I feel a slight sensation of stiffness - not PAIN - and this continues to reduce and occur less often..even without further treatment...however..I stress...I would prefer to have had more treatments close together to be sure of eliminating the problem and strengthening the ligaments as much as possible..I will have another 3 or 4 treatments very close together when I can afford it just so I don;'t have to think about it for another 30 years !!

Is that enough of a postitve vote for prolotherapy when administered correctly and appropriately ????

Good luck...back pain is horrible..and in most cases TOTALLY curable...DO NOT accept back pain advice from doctors who have NOT suffered it themselves !!!! And do not accept it as part of growing old and something you have to live with. Ask your prolotherapist lots of questions..how long have they been doing it, what solution they use etc....they are not all the same - but when you find the right one - you will be very happy !

what sloution did you use, how many sessions and how many injections per lig.

did they use the shot gun approach on the Si or did they only inject certain ligaments. i've come across an interesting articale for a v experience prolo doc who said that injecting the iliom lumbar ligs can cause problems if the joint is "out of alignment"

Ian....hang on I am the patient..

My doctor is an osteopath (infact ex president of Brit osteopathic assoc and osteio school examiner.

he always check I am aligned before the injections but after the first treatment I was never again out of line - having been aligned weekly..yes weekly by my osteopaths in Spain..one from Iraq the other english (only when my regular man was out of town) by the way.
The solution - is known in the prolo world as P2G - which is (I am informed) a mixture of phenol, glucose and glycerol - I would need to check the exact proportions - but I believe it is the solution also known as the "Ongley" solution..named after a NZ doctor who developed that solution in 1957 - incidentally that particular doctor has had some interesting controversy follow him in the USA but neverthe less he is still recognised as a pioneer in prolotherapy. The main members of the US ski team - Bode Miller etc - went to see him against the advise of their own doctors during 2005-2006.

I have forgotten your question now...I will need to read it and post again !!!

OK - other question - he was very selective aout which ligaments were injected, he recorded the information every time and referred to previous treatment regime at the start of each seesion and assesed the movement in each joint individually before each treatment that way he could chart the change in mobility if each joint over a periood iof a few months.

i think i know who you mean. was he based near richmond?!

yes i've read a lot that only certain ligs should be done otherwise some can become to too tight and affect the mechanics of the joint even more...

i know a few distance runners who have had v good success with prolo BUT it had to be followed up with long term core stability exercises. the finders of these individuals were that prolo alone did not do enough as the muscular system added a great deal of stability to the joint (force closure)

how many sessions did you need? + what time did you have between sessions. i've read that all these variables need to be considered to make it more successful...

Right

first session nov 8th 2005 - in gym next day, skiing within 2 weeks.

second session dec 11th 2005 - skiing 2 days later

third session feb 10th 2006 - skiing day before and after..it was at this session that the prolo doctor was himself surprised at how the instability of the joint had reduced

4th session May 5th 2006

5th session May 25th 2006

I would have had a session every 4 weeks for 6 months except that i had to fly in and out of Spain and the ski season started so i was teaching all the time. By May it was 85 per cent perfect.

I since had 2 sessions 2 weeks apart in october 2006 just to make sure even though I very rarely get any symptom and if I do it is very very faint and lasts a matter of hours - before the treatment it was constant for over 2 years and in certain positions or movements very sharp pain - those sharp sensations have never occurred again.

All in all i had far fewer than all the prolo sites suggest are required and toofar apart but the result has been perfect. Time will tell.

Krunchie, I have suffered for about 20 years with a bad back off and on. For the past 2 years it has done me in both physically and mentally, I am constantly in pain with no light at the end of the tunnel. I would like to speak to your prolotherapy consultant about my case. Could you please pm me his details.
Thanks

where do you live. have you had any investigations and what treatment have you had?

i've a list of people that i've found to be useful in MY experience

cheers

where do you live. have you had any investigations and what treatment have you had?

i've a list of people that i've found to be useful in MY experience

cheers

I’ve had a ‘dodgy’ back for about 20 years (I’m 40), but when it goes (always at the base) I see a chiro and after a couple of weeks it’s back to normal (as normal could be!).
At the beginning of last year it just ‘went’ on me- off to the chiro but nothing, pumped myself with diclofenac-nothing. Referred to back specialist who would’nt MRI me. Paid for my own MRI, report said 2 bottom discs are degenerated, no herniation or narrowing of canal (forgot name). Then sent for physio (tried to say I’ve done physio for years and it did’nt work), waited for three months went for physio and nothing. I have also been doing pilates for about four months.

When I wake up in the morning everything seems fine, but as soon as I start doing anything physical, and I am talking about standing for about a half hour or walking say a mile then the bloody thing starts It constantly feels stiff, stiff, stiff and like it’s about to basically cave in at any time. I have been doing loads and loads of core strength stuff but nothing. If I try and bend then I have to really think about how I’m going to get down there. I have now had facet joint injections and these have helped a little with the pain(but painful after standing) but not my range of movementI would love a normal life back, I am not overweight and I am 6’3”, any suggestions on what it could be or help or anything………..

I am based in Bristol

Hi everyone

I'm 31, fit and otherwise healthy, but have recently been diagnosed with hypermobile joints. The pain in my hip, groin and leg is unbearable at times, and I'm having to consider a new career because of it all, which is somewhat depressing. What core stengthening exercises has everyone been doing? I've some from a yoga therapist, but I'm sure some of them are contraindicated. Also have a few from a remedial pilates instructor, but I don't want to make my back worse. Is it even possible to tighten the ligament with exercising? Krunchie - would you be so kind as to pm me the name and number of the prolotherapy doctor who helped you?

Thank you.

damn i deleted my long post before posting!!!

simple answer is yes but how its achieved is much more complex!

its possible to add stability to the joint by improving the motor control, strength and endurance of key muscles with control movement at the joint. In theroy this can reduce the stress going through the joint and on the ligaments of the joint and allow them to recover. Taking into consideration that ligaments can take a very long time to fully recover from injury/yrs of abuse and in many cases never fully recover.

A great example is the sprained ankle. Once sparined several times it can become perminantaly weak (the ligaments that is) but you can strengthening supporting muscles to a high standard that you never have a problem again - as a dedicated distance runner its v common esp if running off rd. its many runners weak spot!

Re yoga and pilites i would be very careful many of those exercise are given by inexperienced instructors who have little dealings with injuries and back problems - some of the exercise can do more harm than good if they place to much stress on the ligaments especially stretches!

you really need to find someone who is experirance in dealing with pelvic dysfucntion and instability

a few basic articles for public reading below.both of these guys well know wrold wide in this field and are on the committee for the World Congresses on Low Back and Pelvic Pain

[DLMURL] http://www.amta.com.au/spinepain.html [/DLMURL]

[DLMURL] http://dianelee.ca/articles/UnderstandingYourBackPain.pdf [/DLMURL]

just out of interest who indentified you as being hypermobile and is this just in the SI or do have have general ligament laxity (Hypermobility Syndrom)?

I've now found 1 guy in northampton 1 in kent (severnoaks) who are v experience in this field and there are a few in london although i've not been to them. The Dr who krucnhie mentions is in surrey/richmond and is v experience in this area although uses prolotherapy as his main treatment approach - i've been to him but am not doing prolo until my muscular system is up to stratch which can take a v long time

good luck!

ps i found a SI belt v helpfull in the eraly stages of this problem

[DLMURL] http://www.appliedbiomechanics.co.uk/pages/sacroiliac.html [/DLMURL]

Hi Iant

Thanks so much for all the links. Really appreciate it. I don't think I will be going for prolotherapy just yet. I'm seeing a cranial osteopath, which is more subtle than the high velocity thrust tecnique of most osteopaths, so hoping that may help.

Thanks again.

Hello Krunchie, wanted to say thankyou for such an informative and extremely useful post you have submitted. I am at the start of a prolotherapy search, like you, delve into everything but wondering where to get things started really. Im looking into this on behalf of my son who has lived for his sport since he was a little'un - football - he is just starting a 3 year sports science degree and what happens a few weeks ago - a football injury - the consultant has informed that he has significant damage to his anterior cruciate ligament and his medial ligament also, they have automatically suggested surgery. Having started doing some research about this and hit on the prolo treatment I was intrigued and am hoping above all else that surgery can be avoided. One of the articles I have read states that the MRI scans are not completely accurate, also states that unless it is a grade 3 injury with a full rupture, to avoid surgery at all costs - it also states that post op - the ligaments are never as strong as before and also that you can have problems with arthritis in later life. My concern is that the doctors he will now have to see - at university - may not be aware of prolotherapy treatments - do you know if this is available on the NHS? - if not - please would you advise me of the Dr that you saw (contact details etc) as I hadnt realised that the treatment success depended on the Dr's skill and experience. I have absolutely no idea what such treatments would cost, with my son being a student finances are going to be an issue but obviously as a parent my son's health is paramount. Really looking forward to hearing from you, regards,

this is the man that krunchie knows

from my research of prolo i know that deep knee ligaments are tricky to treat. Some prolo Dr's do not do them or they require e ray guidence

i have personally met Brian and his assessment was far better than any i've had from any other Orthopeadic Dr. If he can't prolo it then he will be honest rather than take the money and take the risk....

Hello Iant, many thanks for that information, have had a look at the website and want to book an appt!- the injury my son has was sustained when playing football at a local university (not his own), Im wondering if there's any process for claiming compensation via the FA or ?? Would be nice if they would fund the fees eh......................

thanks again 🙂

re your sons knee injury. i lived and trained at the high performance centre of athletics for 4 yrs (loughborough Uni HPAC EIS). when an athlete required surgery they would get sent to who were considered the "best". sometimes abroad to esnure they had the best chance of a full recovery and ensuring the injury site would be as strong as it was pre injury. i see if i have a contact for knee specialists in the uk.

there is a guy over in the states who all the top footy players go to but will costs a lot i would imagine

That's very inspirational to hear and certainly that's the way it should be. I'm worried that my son will just be put through for a routine surgery op without other options being considered, I have told him that I've been researching about the prolo and have been trying to explain what the treatment is (from the little I know) he said he will ask the uni GP about it, but if they are not aware of this therapy, I suspect they'll just send him on to orthopaedics and book in an op. Mind you, I expect there'll be a significant waiting list. But, many many thanks for taking the time to reply, so much appreciated - in the meantime, I've bought the winning lotto ticket for Sat so at least that's a big plus............ 🙂

this is the guy to read about re knee surgery

many of the top professionals go to him as his techniques give the knee the best chance possible to fully recover. he usuly does 2 operations rather than an all in one job whihc is aparently the reason why its so successful. i know of a british runner who had a knee op done by him and made a full recovery and got back to cross country running at a nat standard. luckily for him he was on scholarship in the states at the time.

not sure if prolo can be used on this type of injury. you would have to research...

Blimey, doesnt money talk........... have checked out the websites, I see that Michael Owen went to Colarado for his knee op, bet you they don't have MRSA problems in their hospital.
I really appreciate you sending the information through, it has been very helpful. I just wish this was all available on the NHS.....................

great success with prolotherapy for me so far

shame on all those so could experts who say lower back ligament laxity does not exist.

Hello Krunchie
Can you give me the contact details of the Doctor that you recieved the prolotherapy from. Thank You

Hello

Thinking of prolotherapy.

Is anyone else in same situation who knows a good doctor?

great success with prolotherapy for me so far

shame on all those so could experts who say lower back ligament laxity does not exist.

What an interesting thread, Ian, how are you now two more years on?

Please read this.

Hi,
I don't know if you still post here, but I'm hoping and praying that you do. I am the mother of a son, 31 years old with back issues that cause chronic pain. I would like for him to see a prolotherapist--a good one. I can't afford to send him to mutliple doctors until we find the prolotherapist who is a good one. I am so desperate! It is terrible to hear and see him in such pain. If only I could bear it for him! Please could you send me the contact info on your doctor in London.
Bless you,
Babette

this is the man that krunchie knows

from my research of prolo i know that deep knee ligaments are tricky to treat. Some prolo Dr's do not do them or they require e ray guidence

i have personally met Brian and his assessment was far better than any i've had from any other Orthopeadic Dr. If he can't prolo it then he will be honest rather than take the money and take the risk....

This is a prolo guy ian spoke highly of maybe he can help.
Ian himself hasn't been on healthypages for some time but lets hope he pops in and lets us know ! I've got a feeling he worked as a journalist/researcher for a running magazine.

steve

Thank you ALL Very Much Indeed for a SUPERB thread and info.!

I wander if you could help me please?

have only day before yesterday heard of prolotherapy.
was suppouse to have this coming monday(2 days time) a partial removal of coccyx-due to infalamation there.

I'm very impressed of d effect of this prolotherapy. So much so that i've cancelled d surgery. Instead i'm going to have a meeting with surgeon on Tuesday, about maybe having this therapy instead...
However, have noticed that ligaments are only treated with prolo rather than bone inflamation? Am i correct?

Looking forward to your info. and i Thank You in Advance.