Autism and Vitamin D3

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

Interesting, just a few thoughts .......... 😀

Autism is now epidemic in the industrialized world. If you know an affected family, you know the tragedy of autism.

No one knows what causes autism. (There are various types, some of which have known causes)
Why has it increased so dramatically in the last 20 years? (Several possibilities - stress being just one of them).
How could it increase if it is a genetic disease? As it has now reached "epidemic" level,itcan't be totally down togenetics, although in some cases it mightbe a major factor.
Why is one identical twin severely affected and the other not? Could be because one twin had a better supply of nourishment in the womb? One had a more traumatic birth?
Why are boys so much more likely to get it than girls? For boys, thought to be possibly connected with testosterone surges at a specific time in the womb, and after birth (can't remember the times).
Why is it more common in Blacks?(In general? or in the industrialised world?)
Why do autistic children have larger heads? Possibly due to neurons not pruning properly?
Why can't they excrete heavy metals? Detoxification playing second fiddle to "flight or fright" ? Metabolic disruption to the enzyme system that supports detoxification?
Why is autism less common closer to the equator? (UV is the detoxification wavelength?)
Why do symptoms first appear around the age of weaning? (Not always the case -they are sometimesnoticed at birth, but weaningmaybe the time for gut problems,such as leaky gut etc)
Why do certain drugs increase the risk? (Toxic side effects? chemical stress?)
Why are seizures so common in autism? (several metabolic possibilities)
Why do autistic children have frequent infections? (1 possibility - Immune function suppressed due to stress?)
Why do mothers who consume seafood during their pregnancy have a reduced risk of having an autistic child? (Protein and healthy fat, minerals etc etc? Contributes to their own metabolic balance, which then has a beneficial effect on the foetus?)
Why do a few autistic children seem to get better? (Because the individual "causes" are removed? (as opposed to the one size fits all theory).
Why do multivitamins seem to help? (Improves metabolic function, reduces the "metabolic stress" aspect that can be contributing to symptoms).

We don't know any of the answers to these questions. We don't know how to prevent autism, or how to treat it.
(If we think of autism as a conditionhavingone cause, then maybe. But if "autism" is the result of many different possible factors, different to eachindividual child then there are lots of possibilities - vitamin D supplementation being one of them).

Now a single theory answers all these questions. Furthermore, the theory implies simple prevention and raises, at least the possibility, of treatment.It doesn't to me. Not every child who is autistic is vitamin D deficient and if they are is it intake or poor absorption or assimilation? It raises the possibility of treatment for one possiblestrandof an individual child'ssymptom "tapestry", in thosefamilies for whom this is a factor.

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

I am pleased to read your intelligent response to the points raised.

However, as I am sure you are aware, the article at The Vitamin D council website provided links to peer reviewed research to support the arguments that were put forward. I appreciate it isn't the policy of this site to expect people to back up their "opinions" with evidence but as far as I am concerned I prefer to be able to check where a person is getting their information from and the sources for the evidence they are relying on.

I think you haven't read through all the 11 pages as carefully as you might. If you did you may have noticed the section "In 2007, Dr. Kalueff, now at the National Institutes of Mental Health, reviewed the nootropic (brain‑enhancing) properties of vitamin D in even more detail and concluded that the scientific data stress the importance of the mother having enough vitamin D while she is pregnant and the child having enough vitamin D after birth for "normal brain functioning." There is no doubt vitamin D affects the brain, and does so profoundly" where it is clear that Dr Cannell is thinking that the initial damage, or predisposition to acquire autism, is done before birth as a result of the mothers Vitamin D status.

I'm sure you are aware that most UK people are Vitamin d insufficient.

Google Hypovitaminosis D in British adults at age 45 yr and you will see that most people here have low Vit d status the whole year.If most UK adults have insufficient status then it is likely that most children have a similar status. Your point "in thosefamilies for whom this is a factor" hits the nail on the head.

The research on Vitamin D status in fact used 75nmol/L as the marker of Vitamin D insufficiency. In actual fact damage to bodily functions can be measured at 80nmol/L but Google Circulating Vitamin D3 and 25-hydroxyvitamin D in Humans: An Important Tool to Define Adequate Nutritional Vitamin D Status shows that to obtain the optimal relationship between relationship between circulating vitamin D and 25(OH)D a maternal intake of 6,400 IU vitamin D3/day, was necessary to achieve that sat us.

Wearing ordinary clothes and working outdoors all day everyday in Omaha (same lat Rome) raised 2800iu daily on average.
The body needs between 3000 and 5000iu daily.
Food sources (milk isn't fortified in the UK) can only provide around 400iu daily.
Most pregnant women do not spend 20-40 sunbathing nude every day.
Prenatal vitamins containonly 200iu D3 and indeed there are UK suppliers still using vit d2 which isn't absorbed as well and therefore may not be the least bit effective.

If you can explain how UK mothers regularly obtain optimal amounts of Vitamin D (between 3000 and 6400iu daily)then I may accept your proposition that only a proportion of autistic babies are born Vitamin D insufficient but until you can demonstrate that most UK mothers have over the minimum of 100nmol/L vit d I remain of the opinion that Vitamin D insufficiency it probably the cause of most autism.

It's simple and cheap to ensure your Vitamin D status remains high. All you need to do is use a sufficiently high strength Vit d3 supplement orbetween now and Augustspend 20-40 minutes at midday sunbathing laying down (more skin in direct line of sun) preferably nude or near to (gets those bits least tanned and most efficient at creating Vit d exposed) regularly (at least 3 times a week). The limited nature of sunbathing sessions is important as if you stay out too long the vitamin D on the surface of your skin gets converted to products your body cannot absorb and so staying out until you go red is pointless as not only does sunburn lead to skin cancer but all the vit d you've made has been overcooked.

If you stay in the UK then from September to March you will need to supplement at an effective strength. The thread [link= http://www.h

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

ORIGINAL: tedhutchinson

However, as I am sure you are aware, the article at The Vitamin D council website provided links to peer reviewed research to support the arguments that were put forward. I appreciate it isn't the policy of this site to expect people to back up their "opinions" with evidence but as far as I am concerned I prefer to be able to check where a person is getting their information from and the sources for the evidence they are relying on.

I consider myself knowlegable, not an expert, but my views are based partially on extensive reading (books such as "The Biology of the Autistic Spectrums" ISBN 1-898-68322-0) on the biochemistry, endocrinology , immunology, brain imaging of certain types of autism etc). I have also attended several CPD seminars at BIBIC (British Inst. Brain Injured Children)on autism, including aspergers syndrome, and ADD/ADHD.

I am also a parent of a child who, at the age of 2 developed symptoms on the autistic spectrum.I won't go into the whole story, and we didn't opt for a conventional diagnosis, but symptoms included that he was light sensitive, he hated being outside,and he hadextensive nutritional problems because of food phobia which meant that he was certainly vitamin d deficient.

I believe that any clinically detectable vitamin d deficiencywas, in his case,a consequence ofhis autistic symptoms, not the cause of it. In my son's individual case the major contributing factor was fluoride toxicity. By removing the major "cause" he became less light sensitive and started playing outside, got natural daylight which improved his mood, his sleep pattern, vitamin d statusetc. His diet improved naturally.

Sunlight is not only needed by the body for the production of vitamin d. It has far reaching effects on the whole system. (Source various books on light therapy includingLight: Medicine of the Future by Jacob Libermann). Vitamin d supplementation may or may not help some autistic children, but if its actually asunlight deficiency that is part of the problem, (whether to the pregnant woman, or to a child) thenvitamin d supplementation might not be thefirst treatment choice.To some children supplementation is an impossibility if there is any food phobia issues.

"I'm sure you are aware that most UK people are Vitamin d insufficient. "

"If you can explain how UK mothers regularly obtain optimal amounts of Vitamin D (between 3000 and 6400iu daily)then I may accept your proposition that only a proportion of autistic babies are born Vitamin D insufficient but until you can demonstrate that most UK mothers have over the minimum of 100nmol/L vit d I remain of the opinion that Vitamin D insufficiency it probably the cause of most autism."

If the majority of UK pregnant womenhave difficulty in getting sufficient vitamin D, then if vitamin d deficiency was the cause of most autism, then most children would be born autistic.With the boy/girl ratio in autism, does a woman need a higher intake of vitamin d during pregnancy if she is expecting a boy?

Autistic children have siblingsthat have presumably had similar exposure to sunlight, similar diet, the child maybe even has a twin that shared the womb who is unaffected, so why would vitamin d deficiency only affect one to the extent of causing autism, leaving the other unaffected?

The controversy surrounding the causes of autism keeps going. Some claimmercury from vaccinations - yet not all autistic children have been vaccinated. I don't claim fluoride is the cause of autism, because not allautistic children live in fluoridatedwater areas, or use fluoride toothpaste. There's the opoid theory -yet not all children have leaky gut syndrome.&nbsp

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

symptoms included that he was light sensitive, he hated being outside,and he hadextensive nutritional problems because of food phobia which meant that he was certainly vitamin d deficient.

Other readers experiencing similar problems may find it helpful to know the following.
Vitamin D3 is fat soluble. This means if you buy the capsule forms from Links on The Vitamin D Council Website, these capsules can be slid apart and the contents dropped into some oil, stirred round till dissolved and then used in baking, cooking, or as a massage oil.
So if you bought 50,000iu capsules and make biscuits incorporating one 50,000iu capsule you would have to make sure you mixed the dough thoroughly and then count the total number of biscuits and work out roughly how many iu are now in each biscuit so you can limit intake to between 2000 & 4000iu daily depending on whether you are wanting to maintain or raise Vit d status.
If you used the 5000iu capsules these could be dropped into massage oil and massaged into the skin, your skin is the normal method of making, absorbing vit d3 so no problems there.
A home sun tan bed is another possible alternative strategy, this would be better than commercial suntan palours as you could ensure you had UVB tubes and also could monitor usage to ensure they didn't exceed their useful UVB output limit.

I believe that any clinically detectable vitamin d deficiencywas, in his case,a consequence ofhis autistic symptoms, not the cause of it. In my son's individual case the major contributing factor was fluoride toxicity. By removing the major "cause" he became less light sensitive and started playing outside, got natural daylight which improved his mood, his sleep pattern, vitamin d statusetc. His diet improved naturally.

the amount of Vitamin D from diet really is trivial compared to how much is needed andhow much can be obtained from laying naked in the sun. I'm afraidwhile wearing normal clothes and standing outside the total intake (measured in outdoor workersOmaha, level with Rome) average only 2800iu daily so even working all day every day outdoors left these workmen insufficientstatus in Winter.

Sunlight is not only needed by the body for the production of vitamin d. It has far reaching effects on the whole system. (Source various books on light therapy includingLight: Medicine of the Future by Jacob Libermann). Vitamin d supplementation may or may not help some autistic children, but if its actually asunlight deficiency that is part of the problem, (whether to the pregnant woman, or to a child) thenvitamin d supplementation might not be thefirst treatment choice.To some children supplementation is an impossibility if there is any food phobia issues.

I agree that exposing the skin to sunlight is the best option, there is more to sun than simply vitamin d synthesis and the skin is the body's largest peripheral endocrine organ and controls far more than simply the synthesis of Vitamin d3. That said no one can expect brains to function optimally without sufficient Vitamin D3 and unless at least 4000iu/daily are accessible (by totaling all inputs fromsun, diet, supplement sources)
"I'm sure you are aware that most UK people are Vitamin d insufficient. "

If the majority of UK pregnant womenhave difficulty in getting sufficient vitamin D, then if vitamin d deficiency was the cause of most autism, then most children would be born autistic.With the boy/girl ratio in autism, does a woman need a higher intake of vitamin d during pregnancy if she is expecting a boy?

I disagree, We are talkingof a range of insufficiency from just below 75 to zero vitamin d status. Thosewith near tozero will be most vulnerable butas you have previously pointed out there is a spectrum of autistictype disorders and thes

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

A biscuit recipe such as you describe may be unsuitable for some autistic children for reasons other than the vitamin D. It would not have got past my son’s “safe” list anyway, but for some the ingredients might cause temporary worsening of autistic symptoms, diarrhoea, constipation etc.

Massage is a definite no for some autistic children anyway, and for vitamin d (or any other nutrient) to do its work, however it gets into the body, it relies on the rest of the metabolic chain to be functioning.

A home sun tan bed treatment for an autistic child would also not be recommended without medical advice – and the practicalities of parents trying to do such a treatment safely make this an unlikely option.

As for the drop in vitamin d status in the last 20 years or so:

In Victorian times for example the dress customs of the time meant that women were covered up, large segments of the population, including children, worked long hours in factories etc etc. Yet autism is a relatively new phenomena.

For centuries, many societies’ cultures has included the women covering up completely. If low vitamin d levelsare the cause of autism, then we should have seen an epidemica long time ago.

What is different is that we now have the obsession for low fat dieting (bearing in mind vitamin d is fat soluble) and a fear of cholesterol particularly.The myths of the low fat diet and the dangers of cholesterol are now slowly changing. The body can make vitamin d from cholesterol (“our body makes vitamin d, the sunshine vitamin that regulates calcium and phosphorus metabolism, from cholesterol” – Udo Erasmus, Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill) which is presumably why cultures in the arctic eating a high fat diet, in the darkness for a large part of the year, haven’t a history of an epidemic of autism).

Then there is now the "damaged fats" which the body cannot utilise properly which mayhave more of a bearing than vitamin d intake itself. In the past there wasn't the multiple vaccination programmes, the pesticides, MSG, aspartame, colourings additives etc etc. Vitamin D assimilation is one possible metabolic route that might be affected for any number of reasons, but supplementing with high doses of vitamin d when the body maybe cannot do much with it isn’t necessarily the answer for a child with autism.

If girls didn't get autism, the theory about the different effects of estrogen and testosterone on vitamin d metabolismmightsubstantiate the vitamin d deficiency theory asthe cause of autism. But girls do get autism, and when they do, theycan haveworse symptoms. Girls have a different metabolism when it comes to fats, (because of estrogen) so maybe that is a protective factor, which – if that metabolic protective pathway is disrupted – means that they then have worse symptoms. There are any number of possibilities. But as cholesterol makes the sex hormones, maybe its cholesterol, and not vitamin d, that the researchers should be looking at.

I’m sure there have been cases where one monozygotic twin has autism, the other not, so the lesion theory isn’t supported in all cases, maybe some.

Not all autistic children are vaccine damaged, many are unvaccinated.

Most theories will find some children who fit the hypothesis, but most studies focus on one thing. I’m afraid that vitamin d deficiency joins the ranks of being one of the potential factors in autism, along with mercury, vaccinations, hypoadrenia etc.

“The point I want readers to understand is that using Vitamin D [link= http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/77/1/204 ]at the level the body actually uses[/link] is absolutely[link= http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/1/6 ] totally safe and risk free[/link].” Bearing in mind this

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

biscuit recipe such as you describe may be unsuitable for some autistic children for reasons other than the vitamin D. It would not have got past my son's "safe” list anyway, but for some the ingredients might cause temporary worsening of autistic symptoms, diarrhoea, constipation etc.

The biscuit suggestions was merely an example. Most people would be glad to know that cooking with Vit d3 does not adversely affect it's impact on the system. So incorportating the contents of a high strength Vit d 3 capsule into a meal which uses oil or other fat is a simply and effective way of raising status. We know from [link= http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/1/6 ] span style="color:#551a8b">Risk assessment for vitamin D -- Hathcock et al. 85 (1): 6 .[/link]that it is perfectly safe below 10,000iu/daily, We know you would need to exceed this daily safe upper limit for more than 365 days for there to be any easily reversible contraindications so Nothing Ventured nothing gained and at £20 for 100 x 50,000iu capsules it is not expensive. You would only have to use one of these capsules every other week to ensure an intake of 3500iu/d.

Massage is a definite no for some autistic children anyway, and for vitamin d (or any other nutrient) to do its work, however it gets into the body, it relies on the rest of the metabolic chain to be functioning.

Again this is a suggestion that may/maynot be applicable. But I am sure you are aware many people are not aware that the skin is a useful way of absorbing transdermally useful substances. I bet most don't know that the rather noxious substances found in most sunscreens can be detected in their urine within a few hours. You should only put on your skin substances you are prepared to eat for this very reason. Of course some people are Vitamin D insufficient despite adequate sun exposure but it's a case of nothing ventured nothing gained. The 5000iu capsules work out at £13 for 250 so around 5p each. I don't think most readers here will lose any sleep over a 5p wasted investment. If your child will accept a massage, with or without a vitamin d content, then it's a useful strategy that may be useful. Most people get their Vit d from skin synthesis so for the majority of the population this is a viable and useful way of ensuring it's available.

A home sun tan bed treatment for an autistic child would also not be recommended without medical advice – and the practicalities of parents trying to do such a treatment safely make this an unlikely option.

I would be interested to read any evidence you have for your above comment. Perhaps if you read UV ADVANTAGE by the much honoured Dr. Michael Holick you would understand that regular limited exposure to sunlamps is far healthier than remaining Vitamin d insufficient.

In Victorian times for example the dress customs of the time meant that women were covered up, large segments of the population, including children, worked long hours in factories etc etc. Yet autism is a relatively new phenomena.

For centuries, many societies' cultures has included the women covering up completely. If low vitamin d levelsare the cause of autism, then we should have seen an epidemica long time ago.

But in those days the infant mortality rate was much higher. [link= http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/health/autism/vit-D-deficiency-and-autism.shtml#hd1 ]Does vitamin D explain autism's frequent infections?[/link]Haven't you sufficient common sense to appreciate what would have happened to those more prone to pneumonia and bronchiolitis in past eras?

I don't think the rest of your post bears logical scrutiny. If you could back up some of your claims with reference to online sources then maybe I'd check them over but anyone who hasn't yet sussed out that for every single skin cancer death 30 people die from cancers that thrive in vitamin d depleted bodies hasn't got their priorities right. If we just look at cancer

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

"Haven't you sufficient common sense to appreciate what would have happened to those more prone to pneumonia and bronchiolitis in past eras?"

What shred of evidence have youthat there has been, throughout recorded and unrecorded history, in all cultures, a high incidence of autism but they all died of pneumonia and bronchitis because of their alleged vitamin d deficiency ????

I have sufficient common sense to appreciate that whether or not peopledidsuccumb to pneumonia and bronchiolitis, they were not all autistic. Autism is not justabout vitamin d. Your original post claimed it was, "Now a single theory answers all these questions" which you haven't substantiated.

Istated in my previous posting "high doses of vitamin d supplementation should not be done without extensive further research or advice from a professional who has experience in working with the biochemistry of autism."

The sunbed use for an autistic child not recommended "without medical advice" is also connected with the safety issues of using the equipment, the sensory issues, etc i.e. that are specifically related to autism.

My conscience is clear thank you. When it comes to children with autism, it is misguided to suggest that someone doessome of the things you have suggested, without professional advice, just because its cheap. Whatever your knowledge about vitamin d, with respect, your knowledge about the autistic spectrumappears to besomewhat more limited. What direct experience have you had of treating children on the autistic spectrum with vitamin D alone, and what were the observable benefits to the child?

I had thought your posting was originally intended to spark lively debate. Whatever your views on the cancer rates and vitamin d, thisis asection of the healthypages forum specifically related to autism.

However, if you had just wished to spout your blinkered views on vitamin d being the cause of autism as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, without any debate, then maybe you should have made that clearer in the original post, or found somewhere more appropriate to put it.

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

What shred of evidence have youthat there has been, throughout recorded and unrecorded history, in all cultures, a high incidence of autism but they all died of pneumonia and bronchitis because of their alleged vitamin d deficiency ?

As Autism was first recognised in 1943 expecting a detailed record of autism before that date is somewhat naive, even for you.
Oh dear, you do make me laugh.
What do you expect would happen to the weakest children most vulnerable to infection at a time when 150 out of every 1000kids died before age 5?
You don't need evidence just common sense, with 150 out of every 1000 children dying before the age of 5 which do you think would be most vulnerable?
Those most prone to infection or those [link= http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20061111/bob9.asp ]least prone to infection[/link], those with the[link= http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=51913 ] highest vitamin d status[/link] or those with the lowest.

which you haven't substantiated.

but whichDr Cannell does in his article, all11 pages each page with links to appropriate evidence.
This is a theory he is expounding, he is simply setting out the outline of thetheory so in timeresearchers can confirm or not his theory. The point is, There is no risk in assuming he is is correct, there is littleor no cost on acting upon his theory.
If the theory is bunkum then all that will havehappened is that those people applying the higher level of vitamin d to reach optimal status will have had 70%fewer colds, they will have had 60% fewer cancers, lessdiabetes, less obestiyfewer heart attacks.
Nothing adverse will have happened to people who have maintained optimal vitamin d status so they will just have gained better health even if Dr Cannells theory regarding a possible beneficial impact on Autism is notrealised.
I just don't understand your reluctance to see the blindingly obvious.

Istated in my previous posting "high doses of vitamin d supplementation should not be done without extensive further research or advice from a professional who has experience in working with the biochemistry of autism."

That is just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. So you need a medical opinion from a recognised expert before you don your swimming cossie and obtain 20,000iu from exposure to sunshine? Totally ridiculous, absolutely bonkers. You'll be asking for a medical opinion before you open a tin of sardines next.

The sunbed use for an autistic child not recommended "without medical advice" is also connected with the safety issues of using the equipment, the sensory issues, etc i.e. that are specifically related to autism.

Yes I bet you wouldn't allow your child to switch the TV/PCon either without first obtaining medical advice. I really don't understand why some people areallowed tohave kids letalone keep them?

You have deliberately misconstrued the nature of my post with your blinkered views on what may or may not be possible regarding the use of Vitamin D with autism. You have produced no evidence to support your contentions. Having an optimal vitamin d status will help the brain function of any and every adult and you seem determined to keep autistics Vitamin D deficient without producing any reasonable evidence to support your claims.

Let us be clear if we were dealing with a person who deliberately kept their child short of water or food we would regard that as child abuse.

If you or any other parent of an autistic child knowingly deprives a child, autistic or not, of sufficient Vitamin D for optimum health is that not abuse ? Is it not negligence?

If I knew my father had deliberately kept me Vitamin d deficient when there was good evidence to think it may improve healthandno good reason not to use supplements/alternative strategies to obt

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

ORIGINAL: Rustic

Whatever your knowledge about vitamin d, with respect, your knowledge about the autistic spectrumappears to besomewhat more limited. What direct experience have you had of treating children on the autistic spectrum with vitamin D alone, and what were the observable benefits to the child?

I’ll take it from your subsequentrant that the answer is none then. 😉

As you yourself have stated, Dr Cannell’s article is a theory, which if an adult chooses to act upon for themselves is their own choice, and I’ve no problem with that at all.

“This is a theory he is expounding, he is simply setting out the outline of thetheory so in timeresearchers can confirm or not his theory.”

This is an unsubstantiated theory in relation to autism, and I stand by my views (and last I heard I’m allowed some). I can only state that I would not allow any autistic child in my family to become the guinea pig for your personal vitamin d crusade without obtaining the opinion of someone who understood the biochemistry of autism.

The biochemistry of an autistic child is something you seem toknow nothing about, and getting a professional opinion before giving an autistic child high doses of ANY supplement is common sense, and shows that a parent is acting responsibly in the best interests of their child. Parents are quite capable of looking at a theory, getting some professional advice, and then making an informed decision based on more than one opinion. I no more slavishly follow conventional medical opinion than I accept as gospel some half baked theory about autism and vitamin d that comes from where was it…… the vitamin D council?

Your comment “Yes I bet you wouldn't allow your child to switch the TV/PCon either without first obtaining medical advice. I really don't understand why some people areallowed tohave kids letalone keep them?“ is frankly offensive. If you think that if an autistic child is too afraid to go outside the door, that the same child is somehow magically likely to don the safety goggles and hop on a sunbed for a quick top up of uv without a murmur, then I would suggest that you need to do a bit more research on autism. You do not have the right to criticise and make judgement about my parenting skills when you know nothing about what my child’s anxieties were, or his sensory issues that would have prevented sunbed treatment, or the severity of his condition. What would you have suggested? Tie him down, glue the goggles on? Force vitamin d down his throat?

Leaving aside your need forpersonal attack, if a parent acts on the theory that vitamin d is the cause of autism, and does nothing else but give high doses of vitamin d, they may be wasting months when they could be effectively helping their child by other means. This is especially important for children, because treating autistic children gets progressively more difficult as they get older.

From someone who was expecting me to provide online scientific studies to support my views, its seems its all right for you to avoid answering any questions that rock the vitamin- d- is -the –answer- to -autism boat, and its OK for you not to have to give any evidence to support giving high doses of vitamin d to autistic children because – apparently [sm=rollaugh.gif]– its common sense to you.

Some of my “evidence” comes from personal experience, which apparently counts for less than your unsubstantiated theory. Some of my ideas come from books, which are referenced. I would have been quite happy to have given you a list, but I shan’t waste the time. After all, comments such as “Totally ridiculous, absolutely bonkers. You'll be asking for a medical opinion before you open a tin of sardines next.” – well if that’s the standard I can expect from a debate with you, what would be the point?&

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

There is absolutely no reason why any child or adult should have less than the optimal amount of Vitamin d in their systems.

The amount that is now regarded as optimal is detailed in this paper.
Circulating Vitamin D3 and 25-hydroxyvitamin D in Humans: An Important Tool to Define Adequate Nutritional Vitamin D Status

Achieving optimal vitamin d status requires more supplements or sunlight exposure than previously thought necessary as the latest research has shown less is made from regular hands/face exposure while working outdoors daily at latitude 42.
Effects of Above Average Summer Sun Exposure on Serum 25-Hydroxyvitamin D and Calcium Absorption
This means either full body exposure is necessary or as near to as possible or the use of an effective amount of supplement.

Risk assessment for vitamin D details of the safety of this secosteroid.

Low vitamin d statusincreases the riskof the following condition:cancer, ms, diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, melanoma, hyperparathyroidism, chronic pain,obesity, osteoarthritis, osteoporosis, mental illness and depression .
The urgent need to recommend an intake of vitamin D that is effective draws attention to this problem.

As I have a close family relative with autism I am well aware of the problems associated with this condition.I am also very awareas tohow those caring for an autistic person, can convince themselves that nothing can be done, everyavenuewill prove pointless,and who therefore refuse to take any action which may alleviate the distress or reduce the effects of the condition.

Rustic's determined reluctance to consider carefully any of the suggestions put is an example of this blinkered mentality.

No one has suggested that raisingvitamin d status to optimalshould be conducted instead ofor in the place of any other treatment or therapy regime, therefore the idea that it will cause anyone to waste time is irrelevant.

Obtaining medical opinion about the use ofan effective level of vitamin d supplementationwhile to"official" RDA and TULare so out of touch with reality is simply a waste of time. While "OFFICIAL" consensus opinion is ridiculously out of touch with the latest research it is simply misguided to think that any "official" health professional will give advice outside of the current consensus.
This is anEmperor's New Clothes situation, it is simply unreasonable to expect your health professionals to put their personal careers on the line by supporting suggestions that are outside of the current consensus.

I have not at any point suggested that all the problems of autism can be remedied simply by raising Vitamin d status. The paper byDr Cannell is simply drawing attention to the mechanisms by which optimal Vitamin d status may impact on the progress of the condition.
[link= http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/health/autism/vit-D-and-brain.shtml#hd2 ]Is autism an ongoing destructive inflammatory disease process?[/link]having read this section I find it difficult to see why any caring parent would not want to ensure their child was not Vitamin d deficient or insufficient, irrespective of whether or not that childis autistic or not.
It appears Rustic, knowing his child may be vitamin d deficient, is determined to ensure the proinflammatory cytokines are allowed to continue their distructive activityuninterrupted by the anti-inflamatory actions that Vitamin d is known to provide.

I will once again remind readers that Vitamin D3 is very cheap if bought from USA where it can be obtained in amounts that are likely to be effective. Because Cholecalciferol is a natural product it cannot be patented so no one can make excessive profit out of promoting it. Similarly readers will be aware that regular limited sun exposure is free and providing you don't burn, it is safe. It takes only 20-40 minutes at this latitude to make sufficient with f

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

ORIGINAL: tedhutchinson

As I have a close family relative with autism I am well aware of the problems associated with this condition.I am also very awareas tohow those caring for an autistic person can convince themselves that nothing can be done, everyavenuewill prove pointless,and therefore refuse to take any action which may alleviate the distress or reduce the effects of the condition.

So hasvitamin d taken your close relative off the autistic spectrum?

I know very well that otherthings can be done, because I have donethem for my own child, without vitamin D supplements,so sweeping statements like this don't serve the debate at all.

It is not for you to decide what the optimal amount of vitamin d is for me, or my children, autistic or otherwise. Nor is it for you to decide whether it is a waste of my time to get professional advice before going over the RDA's of any nutrient.

If it comes to a choice betweenCONSIDERINGadditional advice from a professional with experience with autism, orrely solely on your personal rantings in support of an unproven theory,take a guess which I'd probably pick. 😉

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

**moderator's hat on**

Hi folks. It's been a very interesting debate so far but it looks like you are both going to have to agree to disagree on this one, and hopefully before it comes to blows.;)

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RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

Of course it isn't for me to dictate what is an optimal Vitamin d status.
That is what I leave to the experts.
People who have spent their whole lives researching to subject.
People who have produced accurate, published, peer reviewed papers year after year for the last 30 yrs.

People like Bruce Hollis who says " In the winter at the latitude of Chicago, even a fair person cannot photo-produce vitamin D from mid-October through March. Thus, it is VERY important to have a realistic vitamin D recommendation as the current 200 IU/day recommendation is a joke.
It is maddening to me to hear physicians say "drink some milk and you will obtain all the vitamin D you need." It is wrong and harmful to the patient. No one should have a circulating 25(OH) D level—this is the metabolite that defines nutritional vitamin D status—less than 80 nmol. I try to keep my own level at 125 nmol minimum and consume between 2,000-8,000 IU/day "Bruce W. Hollis, Ph.D.
Professor of PediatricsAnd Professor of Biochemistry & Molecular Biology Director of Pediatric Nutritional Sciences Medical University of South Carolina Charleston, SC, USA
This is what someone who has spent 30yrs devoted to finding out about Vitamin dand whose published over 151 research papers of the past 30 yrs, says. It really should be heeded. We live 1300mls further away from the Equator than does Bruce Hollis. This means we need significantly more Vitamin d than people need living at latitude 31 because the sun isn't so strong and doesn't shine for as long or as often. Listening to someone who repeats out of date unscientific myth based information that cannot stand logical scrutiny will simplyprolong the current epidemic of Vitamin d deficiency

I provide links to these papers where possible, I embolden the paper title so they can be searched for and read from beginning to end.
We have a situation where the research is now mile ahead of the current consensus of medical opinion so it is inevitable that unless your GP/Health professional has a particular interest in this subject the advice they provide will be governed by the official consensus that currently says that 200iu is an adequate amount for daily intake and 2000iu is toxic.
Those who have been following the daily revelations about Vitamin d will be aware that those figures are a sick joke. Anyone who relies on them is being dangerously misguided.

I will not repeat the links I've previously posted but I must make it absolutely clear there is nothing in any of my posts that does not stand logical scrutiny. I use my own name and do not hide behind any forum name. Because anyone can quite easily trace me I make absolutely certain everything I post can stand legal scrutiny if needed.

Where there is a choice between a safe, cheap, risk free, potentially beneficialroute and one which leads to increasing disability and which is proven to increase the riskofcancer (by 60%), ms (by 50%) diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, melanoma, hyperparathyroidism, chronic pain, obesity, osteoarthritis, osteoporosis, mental illness and depression, those who choose the path known to result in higher levels of disability deserve no sympathy, but I do pity their kids.

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

ORIGINAL: tedhutchinson

I use my own name and do not hide behind any forum name. Because anyone can quite easily trace me I make absolutely certain everything I post can stand legal scrutiny if needed.

.............. those who choose the path known to result in higher levels of disability deserve no sympathy, but I do pity their kids.

[sm=rollaugh.gif]

On most forums I know they use forum names. It had never crossed my mind that anyone would want to trace me for expressingan opinion on a discussion forum. Moderators moderate the content, the moderators generally use forum names, and people who don’t agree with forum names aren’t forced to join. Another reason for using a forum name is to ensure that forum members are not traceable by anyone with an ulterior motive.

Canyou provide links to anything Bruce Hollis has published on autism?

The idea of vitamin d supplementation and autism appears to have come from the article by Dr Cannell on the vitamin d website. I believe that the vitamin d council is an organisation run by Dr Cannell to promote the benefits of vitamin d in relation to general health. Dr Cannell’s 11 page article on autism seems topropose a theory that vitamin d supplementation for pregnant women may reduce the incidence of autistic children. It seems to make it quite clear that this is a theory that is no way proven. I can find no mention of any suggestion that anybody has suggested that vitamin d supplementation of an autistic child will reduce or cure their autism.

Both people referred to above seem to be promoting controlled exposure to sunlight as preferable to dietary supplementation as an aid to general health and cancer prevention.

Neither of these gentlemen appear to be

“People who have spent their whole lives researching the subject.” (Autism)
“People who have produced accurate, published, peer reviewed papers year after year for the last 30 yrs.” (On Autism).

The impracticalities and potential consequences of trying the suggested sunbed scenario while an autistic child is asleep are pretty obvious, leaving both the child and the carers at risk of injury and distress. With professional help it could possibly be done safely (for example with mild sedation) if vitamin d deficiency was medically proven, and the benefits of the therapy to an individual child outweighed the risks (not necessarily associated with vitamin D). The idea that autistic children will all be sleeping soundly in their beds, allowing their parents to sneak in with an over the bed type sun lamp – well lets just saythat’sprobably alittle optimistic in most cases, ;)and would certainly need consideration concerning what UV at night would do toother physiological processes unrelated to vitamin D.

Scepticism and reasoned critique of an unproven theory about autism is not an "all is doom" "nothing will help" state of mind. Anybody can cut and paste text from an online source but that doesn’t mean that this is all the information available that should be considered.

Vitamin d as a factor in autism is not a new concept. It is one of many referred to in the book previously mentioned, “The Biology of the Autistic Syndromes” for example. There is even a sub group of autistics with steatorrhea (fatty stools) (autism/steatorrhea syndrome) who have problems absorbing many nutrients.

Vitamin D is a fat soluble nutrient. According to Patrick Holford’s New Optimum Nutrition Bible, (which I am referring to as an easily accessible and concise general nutrition book) vitamin D should be taken with foods containing fats or oils, (as already stated) but the additional information is that calcium phosphorous and vitamins E and C help absorption, and what hinders it

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

I presume you do not dispute Heaney's work Human serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol response to extended oral dosing with cholecalciferol Conclusions: Healthy men seem to use 3000–5000 IU cholecalciferol/d, apparently meeting > 80% of their winter cholecalciferol need with cutaneously synthesized accumulations from solar sources during the preceding summer months

and
Effects of Above Average Summer Sun Exposure on Serum 25-Hydroxyvitamin D and Calcium Absorption
Findings from earlier work indicate that our subjects' sun exposure was equivalent in 25(OH)D production to extended oral dosing with 70 µg/d vitamin D3 (interquartile range, 41–96) or, equivalently, 2800 IU/d (interquartile range, 1640–3840). Despite this input, at the late winter visit, 25(OH)D was less than 50 nmol/liter in 3 subjects and less than 75 nmol/liter in 15 subjects.

As it is the case that the body uses 3-5000iu daily and outdoor workers in Omaha (Lat 42=Rome) make on average less than their body needs the suggestion for the exposure of more skin and increased use of supplements suggested by Hollis/Cannell et al in The urgent need to recommend an intake of vitamin D that is effectiveis clearly the way to go. Vitamin D from food sources will never meet the bodies daily need so while any improvement in the uptake of Vitamin D via the digestive tract will be helpful dietary intakewill not and cannot solve the Hypovitaminosis D in British adults at age 45 yr: epidemic.

One does not have to be an expert in Autism to appreciate the role of vitamin d in brain development. The section
Vitamin D and the Brain
[link= http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/health/autism/vit-D-and-brain.shtml ]Is vitamin D required for normal brain development?[/link]
[link= http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/health/autism/vit-D-and-brain.shtml#hd1 ]Does maternal vitamin D deficiency injure the developing brain?[/link]
[link= http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/health/autism/vit-D-and-brain.shtml#hd2 ]Is autism an ongoing destructive inflammatory disease process?[/link]
[link= http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/health/autism/vit-D-and-brain.shtml#hd3 ]Do brains function better with higher vitamin D?[/link]
[link= http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/health/autism/vit-D-and-brain.shtml#hd4 ]Does vitamin D explain the role of vaccines, mercury, and heavy metals?[/link]
Provides sufficient information and more is available at pubmed to show the impact of low vitamin d status on brain function.

The fact remains that the benefits of optimal vitamin D status are so profound that anyone would be ill advised to rely on current Official Medical Advice regarding sun exposure or the official recommended daily intake.

Others may find [link= http://forum.lowcarber.org/showpost.php?p=6684892&postcount=1524 ]Zuleikaa's fact sheet interesting.[/link]
Vitamin D Facts

Vitamin D deficiency is implicated in over 80 diseases and has been proven to prevent or remit 28 kinds of cancers. Vitamin D is a powerful steroidal hormone that tells the body how to work and controls a wide variety of cellular functions, not just calcium regulation and bone growth.

If it hurts to press firmly on the breastbone, you might have chronic vitamin D deficiency.
Other signs of vitamin D deficiency:
• Arthritis, bone, muscle, and/or joint pain, lack of leg and other muscle strength; lack of balance, rickets, osteomalacia, osteoporosis, need for joint replacement
• Susceptibility to sunburn, fragile skin that easily tears, cracked dry skin, eczema, psoriasis, rosacea
• Tiredness, depression, Seasonal Effective Disorder (SAD),Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS)
• Diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, hyperparathyroidism,
• Immune system and Auto immune diseases: Asthma, Lupus, TB, MS, Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS), Celiac, Crohn's, Parkinson's, rheumatoid arthritis, Fibromyalgia, chronic infections
• PMS, heavy bleeding, fibroids, infertility, PCOS, low testosterone/estr

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

ORIGINAL: Rustic

Canyou provide links to anything Bruce Hollis has published on autism?

I'll take that as a no then 😉

Does Heaney satisfyyour criteria for "expert"i.e.
"People who have spent their whole lives researching the subject.” (Autism)
“People who have produced accurate, published, peer reviewed papers year after year for the last 30 yrs.” (On Autism).

Interesting though the quotes you have cut and pasted are, when read in full in context they make no mention of treatment of autism by means of vitamin d supplementation.

Have you any evidence at all of successful treatment (not prevention) of autism by the use of vitamin d supplements?

Having given us a lot ofquotes about the suggested use of vitamin d in the prevention of diseases and ailments such as cancer, arthritis etc would you tell a cancer patient that taking vitamin d would cure them? or that vitamin d deficiency was the cause of their cancer? or that they should undertake vitamin d supplementation without investigating any other forms of treatment, or that getting another professional opinion before doing so implied that theywere "Totally ridiculous, absolutely bonkers. You'll be asking for a medical opinion before you open a tin of sardines next.” ??

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

It should be fairly obvious that a NEW theory is by definition NEW and will not have been considered before. Therefore expecting to find evidence of links between Autism and Vitamin d before anyone had everthought there may be such a connection seems somewhat absurd.

Over the next few years, it will probably be at least 20 before action is taken, (USA has been fortifying with folate since 1998 and we are just considering it) we may see more evidence to support this theory. The question is what to do in the intervening time. Is it better to ignore the Autism/vitamin d theory or is it better/safer to acknowledge there may be a connection and act as if it were a plausible theory.

Common Sense tells us that a brain cannot be expected to operate properly when it has less than optimal amounts of those substances it needs to perform perfectly. You do not need to be an expert in brains or autism to recognise the obvious.

It has been demonstrated that cognitive function is improved when optimal vitamin dstatus is reached, the same applies to physical performance andimmune response.

If you consider it wise to restrict the amount of Vitamin d you and your family receive by adhering to the current official guidelines for diet or sun exposure that is your business but it's my opinionbased on my study of the latestVitamin d research that having optimal Vitamin d status, so the body/brain/immune system can operate unrestricted by any deficiency status will be better and safer, not only for the average member of the public but also for those with Autism.

Those people who have a financial interest or whose Career prospects depend on the continuing current perceptions of any condition will be the most reluctant to accept any information that damages their income source or career prospects. Many people for instance claim DLA motability for problems associated with walking, replace their hips and although we know most will be required to walk more than 50yds daily after the operation most (human nature being what it is) will be reluctant to return their blue badge or end their DLA claim.

In the same way Charities dependant on MS/CANCER for their existence will be last to acknowledge that Vitamin D may reduce/prevent cancer/ms incidence. Their careers/income/mortgages are all dependent on the continuation of current incidence patterns. They are not going to be keen to do anything that significantly reduces their own prospects of financial well being.

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

ORIGINAL: Rustic

would you tell a cancer patient that taking vitamin d would cure them? or that vitamin d deficiency was the cause of their cancer? or that they should undertake vitamin d supplementation without investigating any other forms of treatment, or that getting another professional opinion before doing so implied that theywere "Totally ridiculous, absolutely bonkers. You'll be asking for a medical opinion before you open a tin of sardines next.” ??

I'll take that as a no then. 😉

I think we can summarise this thread that Dr Cannell has a theory which he agrees is not yet proven, which says that vitamin d may prevent various diseases. There is no evidence, and nobody appears to be saying that vitamin d supplementation can cure these diseases once they are established i.e. vitamin D may have value as a preventative.

I find it amazing that just because I do not believe in your theory that vitamin d will cure autism, that you have jumped to the conclusion that I am restricting my family's access to vitamin d. You have made assumptions about me as a parent which are quitebluntly wrong, and at times extremely offensive.

"Many people for instance claim DLA motability for problems associated with walking, replace their hips and although we know most will be required to walk more than 50yds daily after the operation most (human nature being what it is) will be reluctant to return their blue badge or end their DLA claim. "

How is this relevant to a discussion on autism in children?

"NEW" unproven theoriesbeing presented as a treatment for autism help nobody, and can do irrepairable harm if taken out of context. Are you prepared to accept that the treatment of autism is a complex subject which some of us have been researching and practising for a number of years, with some success with children with early intervention?

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

In the same way that those who have a financial interest in prolonging their disability status are reluctant to admit there may be a way to reduce their disability or that their level of disability has been reduce (bb example) so cancer/ms charities are reluctant to admit (in the same way you have displayed) there may be a route to reduce the incidence /severity of cancer/MS/autism.

It is simply untrue to say that there isn't sufficienct evidence to say that high vitamin d status reduces cancer incidence.
It is simply untrue to say that there isn't sufficient evidence to saythat high vitamin d status reduces MS incidence.
It is true that (as the theory was only proposed publicly on 28th May the day I posted The Vitamin D Council newsletter here) as yet there is little backing (apart from those links available from the Vitamin d article linked to in the original post) for this theory.

The issue you appear to be avoiding is what is the safest option, to ignore Dr Cannell's theory that Autism ispossibly likely to arise as a result of poor Vitamin d status during pregnancy and during lactation and allow the current Vitamin D insufficiency epidemic to continue unrecognised by the general public, or to play safe and ensure optimal vitamin d status of pregnant and nursing mothers and to ensure all children, in particular those with Autistic Spectrum Disorders, are adequatelysun- (or dietary-) Vitamin d replete sothe vitamin D endocrine system functions in a fashion as do other steroid synthetic pathways, not limited by substrate availability.

No harm can come to anyone who has optimal vitamin d status.

No one is suggesting or has ever suggested, that while evidence is being collected to support this particulartheory other theories, therapies, treatments should not proceed as currently. The only outcomes from having this theory published in the public domain are beneficial.

It is beneficial that parents of Autistic children read [link= http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/health/autism/vit-D-deficiency-and-autism.shtml#hd1 ]Does vitamin D explain autism's frequent infections?[/link]understand that their children may be more prone to infections and that [link= http://iportti.net/?14@@.59857331 ]The sunshine superstar: study reveals Vitamin D as 'wonder vitamin'[/link] infections will be reduced by 70% if adequate intakes of Vitamin d are provided.

It is of benefit to parents of Autistic children to read [link= http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/health/autism/vit-D-and-brain.shtml#hd4 ]Does vitamin D explain the role of vaccines, mercury, and heavy metals?[/link]as having sufficient Vitamin d in the brain enhances it's ability to deal with heavy metals if these are proved to be implicated in Autism.

I nothing but the utmost contempt for the disease mongering[link= http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=19253#risk ]Cancer UK[/link] for presenting the case for acquiringoptimal Vitamin d status in an such a biased manner. (No one would guess from reading their information 30 low vitamin d status cancer deaths occur for each sunburn induced skin cancer.)

I have nothing but the utmost contempt for [link= http://www.mssociety.org.uk/about_ms/everyday_living/diet_and_nutrition/introduction_to.html ]The MS Society[/link] for failing to inform their members of the links between MS incidence and progression and Vitamin D status.

I have the same contempt for those who persistently try to discredit the Autism<> Vitamin d theory.

Where there is good evidence that cancer occurs less frequently and progresses more slowly in Vitamin D replete bodies the safest cheapest no risk option is to ensure people acquire optimum Vitamin d status.
Where there is good evidence MS occurs less frequently and progressesmore slowlyin Vitamin D replete bodies then the safest cheapest no risk option is to ensure people acquire optimum Vitamin d status.
Where there is a good theory, backed by logical argument and good research b

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

As your post has not prompted a moderators intervention, I am assuming that there are no moderator objections to my making a response.

Firstly we had mothers being given the impression that they could have avoided a child's autism if they had supplemented with vitamin d during pregnancy, or got more sunshine.
This then led to implying that anyone who didn’t follow the vitamin d advice that you gave was committing a form of child abuse, despite the fact that you appear to know nothing about the realities of bringing up a child with autism.
Then claims that parents could sneak in at night with a sun lamp and give their autistic kids a quick uv top up, or bake cookies with hidden vitamin d without taking professional advice, despite their being enormous implications to an autistic child unrelated to vitamin d. You are also implying that you can treat autism with vitamin D, though the websites you quote to support this say nothing of the kind. None of the experts you quote are actually claiming to be able to treat autism with vitamin D. They are suggesting that vitamin D during pregnancy MAY help prevention.
Now you are implying that families would deliberately not seek help to reduce their child’s disability/autism because of the financial loss of such benefits as DLA, which most parents of special needs children would find grossly offensive. This only shows your complete lack of understanding or empathy with parents who are bringing up children with disabilities.
I have not stated that autistic children should be kept vitamin d deficient. I have stated that I would choose a holistic treatment plan taking all the individual factors for a child into account rather than supplement with large doses of vitamin D alone.
For having dared to have expressed an opinion that does not coincide with yours, I am somehow deserving of your contempt, along apparently with the cancer charity and the MS society (although what they have to do with autism I don’t know). Having looked at their websites referred to by you, they seem to attach importance to vitamin d, though perhaps not as aggressively as you would like.
You state “I don't understand why you are not supporting my endeavours to encourage optimal vitamin d status in the public in general and more particularly in those with Autism. But maybe there is a reason. “
Would you support anyone who is touting a miracle cure for autism, who obviously knows nothing about autism, who refuses to answer direct questions, stating that the questioner must be bonkers if they don’t agree with you? Who is insistent that your side of the discussion must provide evidence for something that you haven’t even stated, whilst they don’t have to because what they say is common sense?[sm=rollaugh.gif]
You are, quite frankly, the most offensive person I have ever had the misfortune to enter a discussion with, on this or any other forum.
Now do you understand the reason? 😉

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

Firstly we had mothers being given the impression that they could have avoided a child's autism if they had supplemented with vitamin d during pregnancy, or got more sunshine.

Those who are aware of the role of vitamin d in the development of the brain know that Vitamin D status of the mother directly impacts on the development of the fetus brain size. This is what the section Is vitamin D required for normal brain development? is detailing. It is a matter of fact that Vitamin d affects brain development that is why it is crucial that all mothers get plenty of vitamin d irrespective of whether or not the malformation of the brain due to low vitamin d status leads to autism or not. It isn't the mothers fault it is the fault of the medical profession not keeping up to date with the latest research. While they are waiting for the penny to drop it is important that others do not put future generations at risk. But if mothers take the prenatal vitamins and follow current medical advice they will be vitamin d insufficient, you cannot blame them, it is the quantity/quality of vitamin d in the vitamins that is at fault, it is the sunsmart advice they are given that is wrong. That is why you cannot trust health professionals advice on vitamin d at the moment. It is not based on the latest science. It is wrong, it is dangerously misguided. It understates the amount of vitamin d that is needed. It misleads mothers into remaining Vitamin D insufficient. It is current advice/information/vitamin d supplements that needs changing and I blame the Health Professionals not the mothers.

This then led to implying that anyone who didn't follow the vitamin d advice that you gave was committing a form of child abuse, despite the fact that you appear to know nothing about the realities of bringing up a child with autism.

As you know I am fully aware of the difficulties of dealing with autistic children which is why avoiding confrontation may be a useful strategy. I do believe that knowingly allowing your child to remain Vitamin d insufficient is tantamount to child abuse as would be deliberately failing to provide sufficient food or water.

Then claims that parents could sneak in at night with a sun lamp and give their autistic kids a quick uv top up, or bake cookies with hidden vitamin d without taking professional advice, despite their being enormous implications to an autistic child unrelated to vitamin d You are also implying that you can treat autism with vitamin D, though the websites you quote to support this say nothing of the kind. .

The use of whatever means necessary to correct vitamin d insufficiency, which [link= http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/3/860 ]most UK citizens demonstrate, [/link]is vital if further damage to the child/adult is to be avoided. It is the Vitamin d insufficiency state that is being corrected, whether this impacts on the Autism will be useful information which I hope readers to this forum will feed back. I'm sure many have tried using Cod Liver oil, and may have found it helpful, it is a good source of Vitamin d probably the best food source but not sufficient on it's own therefore even if you use Cod Liver Oil more vit d from other sources may be needed to correct Vitamin d insufficiency.

None of the experts you quote are actually claiming to be able to treat autism with vitamin D. They are suggesting that vitamin D during pregnancy MAY help prevention.

You are wrong. see this page [link= http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/health/autism/vit-D-and-brain.shtml#hd2 ]http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/health/autism/vit-D-and-brain.shtml#hd2[/link]why can't you see that if the argument here is correct, then reducing the inflammatory process will lead to a reduction of further damage caused by the inflammation.

Now you are implying that families would deliberately not seek help to reduce their child's disability/autism because of the financial loss of such benefits as DLA, which most p

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

"As you know I am fully aware of the difficulties of dealing with autistic children which is why avoiding confrontation may be a useful strategy. I do believe that knowingly allowing your child to remain Vitamin d insufficient is tantamount to child abuse as would be deliberately failing to provide sufficient food or water. "

"The use of whatever means necessary to correct vitamin d insufficiency, which [link= http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/3/860 ]most UK citizens demonstrate, [/link]is vital if further damage to the child/adult is to be avoided. It is the Vitamin d insufficiency state that is being corrected, whether this impacts on the Autism will be useful information which I hope readers to this forum will feed back. "

"It is harmless. It is cheap."

Avoiding confrontation may be a useful strategy? [sm=rollaugh.gif]

Whatever means necessary?

You appear to be stating that, not reinforcing food phobia by forcing a child to take a supplement they may or may not need, or being prepared to risk serious injury to parent or child by the forced use of a sunbed is the equivalent of not providing food and water and tantamount to child abuse? What planet are you on??

On what experience do you claim you are “aware” that there are difficulties of dealing with autistic children? What do you think would be the results of an autistic child waking up in the middle of the night to find that the people they trust have invaded their personal space with strange equipment and have removed their night clothes to treat them by force?

Do you not think that what you are proposing might have a serious effect on a child’s anxiety levels, or make the child afraid to go to sleep again in case it happened again? Or that a confrontation in the middle of the night (or any other time) could cause serious injury to a child or a parent? Have you not heard of self-injurious behaviour? Extreme sensory issues?

Do you honestly hope that readers of this forum who aren’t deliberately keeping their children disabled in order to milk the benefits system will feed back information about such forced treatments, obtained by “any means necessary?” to support Dr Cannell’s unsubstantiated THEORY which doesn’t get past the fact that for CENTURIES, environmental conditions and social customs of many societies meant that they did not receive the amount of sunlight now being proposed as being necessary to be vitamin d sufficient? That these cultures somehow found ways of avoiding epidemics of degenerative disease and autism without supplementing with large doses of vitamin D? i.e. that there may be other factors to take into account?

And for what at the end of the day? To provide “feedback” for your personal vendetta against the health professionals who you seem to think us poor misguided parents think we need to consult before opening a tin of sardines? For your vitamin d/autism crusade, which in any event will at best be described as “anecdotal? ” Based on experimental procedures that I suggest wouldn’t even get past the ethics committee acting on behalf of the average lab rat, let alone a child with autism?

And the most outrageous thing is that you are expecting parents of autistic children to do it for you in a mass uncontrolled experiment which would be laughed at by the “experts” you hold in such high regard…………… well if that doesn’t take the (vitamin d soaked) biscuit. [:'(]

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

Well that just about takes the biscuit.

The experiment that the health professionals deployed and is still ongoing is to artificially restrict Vitamin d supplies by suggesting that all sun exposure is dangerous and before people go outside they should either cover up or apply sunblock. Suggesting that people return to the days when regular limited sunexposure without sunscreen was general practice is not an experiment it is simply recognising the fact that we evolved with a skin colour appropriate for the latitude of the indigenous people of that skin colour. see [url]Google images [/url] allowing the skin to work in the way it naturally evolved for isn't an experiment it's common sense.

The result of this mass experimentation is found in the low levels of vitamin d which the majority of the UK/USA population now experience. We cannot blame health professionals for acting as they did 20 yrs ago when the role of Vitamin d was unknown. But we do now know that Vitamin D is used in tissues all over the body, these tissues manufacture the metabolite that fights infection and cancer proliferation in situ as the need arises. Now we know that Vitamin d isn't just for bones but for the stable operation not only of the brain but enzyme reactions throughout the body, it is imperative that everyone (particularly those with autism) has optimal Vitamin d status.

If you want the best for your child, autistic or not, you will try to ensure they have adequate exposure to sunlight or the nearest equivalent. The skin is your largest peripheral endocrine organ. It needs exposure to sunlight or equivalent to operate in the way nature intended. Of course no one should risk harming their child in the process but the reader must be aware that low vitamin d status allows so many chronic conditions to flourish that every effort should be made to rectify an insufficiency situation where this is suspected.

You may be interested to know that my suggestion for dissolving a Cholecalciferol capsule in oil and applying that to the skin is in fact an orthodox way of supplying Vitamin d as there is a Transermal D3 cream that does the same job.
Having antimicrobial peptides operating on the skin surface is part of your immune defence strategy, ignore this fact and you have a less than optimal immune system, if sunlight/sunlamps aren't an option then maybe a cream might help.

RE: Autism and Vitamin D3

Moderator's post

Please may I remind you of Moonfairy's post # 13 above:

**moderator's hat on**

Hi folks. It's been a very interesting debate so far but it looks like you are both going to have to agree to disagree on this one, and hopefully before it comes to blows.;)

Please refrain from personal attacks, so keepingwithin forum guidelines:-
[link= http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=14603 ][/link]

[blockquote]quote:

Language:
Any foul or hostile language used will not be tolerated. This includes any derogatory statements and profanity. Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted. Insults and negative attitudes are not allowed. Saying you don't agree & why, can be done in a good humoured and polite way without causing offence.

All members have the right to their own ideas, beliefs and faiths . Members have the right to express these with equal respect and consideration.
[/blockquote]

Many thanks
Moonfairy
HP Moderating Team

[ [link= http://www.healthypages.net/forum/fb.asp?m=453645 ] http://www.healthypages.net/forum/fb.asp?m=453645 [/link]]

And in particular the excerpt from the forum guidelines with regard to personal attacks and negative attitudes.


Rustic, in response to your comment:

As your post has not prompted a moderators intervention, I am assuming that there are no moderator objections to my making a response.

May I respectfully point out here that it is simply not possible for the moderators to immediately read every post as and when it appears on the forums, so such an assumption is perhaps best not made.

In principle, of course, there is no objection to responses, but we do ask that members adhere to the forum guidelines and in this instance regarding HOW they respond.

Holistic
On behalf of the Moderating Team

I tried D3

Hi. Sorry to break in on an old argument. Just wanted to say, I read Cannell's hypothesis on the Vit D council site, and it was a possible fit with my experience in pregnancy - which was in the winter, and I would have had very little D from diet. My Asperger's son is a March baby. I didn't supplement while breastfeeding because I didn't realise my milk would be low in D. And he got v little D, almost none, from then till v recently because he doesnt eat fish or eggs and dislikes the sun.
So I thought it was worth trying supplementing him, little to be lost if I watched carefully to make sure the known side-effects didn't occur. And - of course it could be down to other things, he's not in a bubble - his mood changed remarkably, his separation anxiety almost vanished, his cheeks became pink, his concentrationa and socialbility also improved.
It could be a coincidence. Or it could be that there is something important in this D theory for maybe a sub-section of autistic children. There is research going on into this now, so we may have the first results soon. Meanwhile, there would be no harm in having autistic children tested for their D status and supplementing if it is low. At the worst it will help their bones and perhaps their teeth.

tedhutchinson, there are none so blind as those who will not see. I endorse ALL of your comments in the area of well-being and only wish all of those afflicted with cancer would feel as great as I do.

kcat

Hi there, I haven't read all the posts, however I read something recently written by Bernard Rimland Ph.D. who talks specifically of Vit B6 and magnesium:

Andrew Wakefield did a significant amount of research on treating the gut, which is normally abnormal in Autistic children, with very good results. (now sadly discredited by GMC, but for all the wrong reasons). Thankfully, other researchers are now proving his theories to be true.

This has come recommended, detoxification of childs system of heavy metals can improve their condition:

Hi there, I haven't read all the posts, however I read something recently written by Bernard Rimland Ph.D. who talks specifically of Vit B6 and magnesium:

Hi Maya

I have a bit of a personal interest in magnesium at the moment from the mood and digestion perspective... rather than any interest in autism. Hence as I was hoping to find out more interesting stuff about magnesium I found Dr Rimlaud's testimony very disappointing since the only text on magnesium and B6 in it was as follows!!

"...almost half of all autistic children and adults respond favorably to high doses of vitamin B6 and magnesium., with no adverse effects."

That's it. Nothing else! I'd love to know more - so do you know of anything more substantial on the subject that you could point me towards? I'd be very grateful if you could.

Thanks so much, Ava x